Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
In my experience no!
I’ve had an RBR750 and 5x RBS750s for a couple of years. Although for some of that time I’ve had pretty good Wi-Fi network, I’ve spent countless hours/days/weeks fiddling trying to improve connectivity problems. For the price I paid for it all, I’ve been pretty disappointed with how it’s all performed. Netgear seem to be more focused on selling subscriptions for bolt on services than producing robust mesh systems. A lot of this was made worse with a wired backhaul. I’ve tried every available settings and way of connecting them to try and improve things, including firmware updates, numerous different channels, CTS/RTS ratios, preamble settings, transmit powers, router and satellite placement, soft resets, factory resets with re-sync wireless, factory resets with re-sync wired then wireless, new Cat7 cables, gigabit switches in between, hub/spoke, daisy chain….. and my final conclusion is that the network is much better without any wired backhaul at all. With a wired backhaul I was consistently plagued by frequent disconnections, very slow re-connections, and patchy connection to other devices on my LAN. All or most of this disappeared when I sacked the ethernet backhaul. I live in quite an old house with some big thick walls, and lots of nooks and crannies which probably doesn’t help.
I now have a relatively stable network with an entirely wireless backhaul, although I do have some ethernet patch cables connected to some satellites and the router feeding various bits of kit. These seem to work well.
I initially went down the wired backhaul route as I was under the impression it would help me build a more robust network with full duplex etc. But in my experience, it’s been a complete waste of time. Coupled with the other frustrations about the Orbi system (hard sell on trying to get us to pay subscriptions for what should be basic router functions, inability to set DNS settings for LAN etc) I’m pretty close to sacking my Orbi system and buying something better. Let’s hope that it continues to be robust for a good stretch now that I’ve threatened it with being disbanded otherwise.
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
In my experience it is a lot easier to make things worse than better. Especially when the actual problem hasn't been identified. And especially when the basic settings don't work. That's a red flag that something fundamental is likely a problem rather than something esoteric. When I see people starting to go down the path of CTS/RTS settings and grasping for the latest "CATx" spec cable, my sense is that it won't end well until the grasping at straws is over.
I appreciate that you had issues and that you have stabilized things, but "wired backhaul" as the culprit is probably a red herring and something else you did inadvertently settled things down.
For the 3 systems I have owned, RBR50, RBR850, and RBR960, wired backhaul has always been better. Not by a lot with the 960, but still better - even with my old 1996 installed CAT5 cables. And there's zero reason that "old house with some big thick walls, and lots of nooks and crannies" would make wired backhaul work worse than wireless. If anything, it would very likely be the opposite.
Wireless backhaul works well, but there is no reason wired backhaul shouldn't be better if it can be done. Just as a wired connection to any networked device is going to generally be better than WiFi. WiFi is for convenience, but the most robust performance will be wired given reasonably modern equipment.
I’ve had an RBR750 and 5x RBS750s for a couple of years. Although for some of that time I’ve had pretty good Wi-Fi network, I’ve spent countless hours/days/weeks fiddling trying to improve connectivity problems. ...
A lot of this was made worse with a wired backhaul. I’ve tried every available settings and way of connecting them to try and improve things, including firmware updates, numerous different channels, CTS/RTS ratios, preamble settings, transmit powers, router and satellite placement, soft resets, factory resets with re-sync wireless, factory resets with re-sync wired then wireless, new Cat7 cables, gigabit switches in between, hub/spoke, daisy chain….. and my final conclusion is that the network is much better without any wired backhaul at all. With a wired backhaul I was consistently plagued by frequent disconnections, very slow re-connections, and patchy connection to other devices on my LAN. All or most of this disappeared when I sacked the ethernet backhaul. I live in quite an old house with some big thick walls, and lots of nooks and crannies which probably doesn’t help.
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
Just curious, what is the size of home you have all this in? In Sq Ft please.
Brand and model of switches used?
FW version currently loaded?
Lots of factors can contribute to wired BH not working, # of deployed RBS, configuration, placement and distances, cables used, condition of cables used, ethernet ports and pins.
All Orbi systems I have and tested, all work well with ethernet BH sans the use of any managed or smart switch.
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
I’m sure in general you are correct, wired will usually be more robust than Wi-Fi, which is why I wanted to go down that road in the first place. All I know is that the end result for my network has been very clear. After a huge amount of time and troubleshooting (new cables, setting everything up from scratch etc), the network is significantly more stable with a wireless backhaul. Handoff when roaming between APs works much more smoothly and devices connect much more quickly. I’m not sure why, that’s just my experience. Perhaps I’m just unlucky!
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
Sorry, last reply was in fact a reply to the post before yours. Thanks for taking the time to help.
In answer to your questions:
Firmware V4.6.14.3_2.3.12, all satellites up to date.
Property size is roughly 5000sq feet. Lots of thick cob (mud) and stone walls. Minimum distance between APs is 20 feet (when walls are v think), max 40 feet (across garden to garage). I have read the recommendations about optimal placement/distance and have spent a lot of time experimenting with different positions, as well as reducing the transmit power of both bands.
Switch was a TP link SG1005P unmanaged gigabit switch. It's not in there at the moment, but I tried with and without as a test just in case.
I have tried different cables, but the current ones (which I disconnected last week and it's been fine since) were brand new, Cat7 shielded. The RBR750 confirms that when connected they manage to negotiate a full speed connection, looking at the statistics page (1000M/Full).
I have 5 satellites. Now that they are all on wireless 5GHz backhaul, it's all working pretty smoothly, with generally good handoff and roaming, reasonable speeds and quick device joining. Testing speeds from APs to the router with the openspeedtest add-on for Home Assistant (ethernet to router) I get generally get 300-600mps wirelessly with latency of a few ms.
It is probably worth noting that I do have a potential double NAT situation going on at the moment, as I have a Starlink v2 router providing my internet. This is plugged into the WAN port of the RBR750. Starlink does not appear to be fully compatible with Orbi (numerous examples in these forums of people with similar experience), and I have found that when enabling bypass mode (as recommended by Starlink when using a 3rd party router) on the Starlink my network (in terms of latency and speed) is actually much worse! So whilst I do have a potential double NAT situation, my network is currently performing the best it has for a long time with the Starlink in router mode and the Orbi using 5GHz backhaul. The problems with wired backhaul being less stable than wireless pre-dated the Starlink router (I had an ADSL modem before that) so I had assumed the two were not linked but I thought it was worth mentioning just in case.
Where do you have the RBR and RBS placed with in the home and remote locations?
Can you draw us up a floor diagram and lay out with indication of where the RBR and RBS are placed with distances please?
Please describe the issues and problems seen when the RBS were all ethernet connected...
Some non NG branded switches can also impact how the RBR and RBS work when ethernet connected. NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3 series switches work for Orbi systems.
For the 7 series Orbi system, CAT6 UTP cabling would be recommended and sufficient for ethernet connections between the RBR and RBS.
Recommended connection paths for ethernet connected RBS:
Depending on size of home and placement of RBS, 5 RBS maybe too much. I have a 5k sq ft home and can get away with one RBS ethernet or wireless connected when I have my 750 series online.
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
In answer to your questions:
I'm surprised about the firmware - I've just rechecked on the router browser config page and it states that all the devices are up to date - is this not accurate?
My home is approx 5000sq feet. Two floors, but the problem is that much of it is made out of cob (mud) or stone and the walls and some of the floors/ceilings are very thick. I have placed the router centrally upstairs, and done extensive experimentation with the position of the satellites which are all downstairs. I'm aware that optimal placement is 30 feet or so, but in certain areas I've found that things worked much better with a smaller distance for the wireless backhaul due to the sheer thickness of mud and stone (RBSs 2 and 3)! That's why I've got 5 of them.
The thick walls also make routing ethernet tricky, but I managed to route two ethernet cables from the RBR to the RBSs numbers 1 and 3. The other RBSs run of wireless backhaul. They are all arranged in hub/spoke orientation, apart from 5, which is daisy chained from 4. 5 is in a garage with a clear line of sight and works pretty reliably.
So I was running a mixed ethernet/wireless backhaul, but have since ditched the wired part and it's all 5GHz now. The whole network was generally less stable when these two ethernet backhauls were connected. Devices took longer to connect, sometimes several minutes, and would drop connections. Pings and speeds were less.
I only used a switch briefly as a test
I'm aware that a minimum of Cat 6 cable is recommended, I went with Cat 7 to future proof things. The cables are all brand new and shielded/braided.
I followed the link you mentioned about connections.
I've attached a floor plan. Sorry it's quite busy! Hopefully it's all self explanatory.
I very much appreciate you taking the time to help!
I'm surprised about the firmware - I've just rechecked on the router browser config page and it states that all the devices are up to date - is this not accurate?
Some times NG doesn't auto update or push FW to users systems. NG finally gave control of this back to users after many years of users complaining of FW being pushed that broke there systems. So if you don't see it in the FW update page or Orbi app, please check NGs download page or here in the forums. User can Manually update there systems if they choose too.
My home is approx 5000sq feet. Two floors, but the problem is that much of it is made out of cob (mud) or stone and the walls and some of the floors/ceilings are very thick. I have placed the router centrally upstairs, and done extensive experimentation with the position of the satellites which are all downstairs. I'm aware that optimal placement is 30 feet or so, but in certain areas I've found that things worked much better with a smaller distance for the wireless backhaul due to the sheer thickness of mud and stone (RBSs 2 and 3)! That's why I've got 5 of them.
I presume the marking of RBS750 Upstairs near the door and stone wall is the RBR?
Looking at the floor plan, though with the building materials in the mix, RBS 2 and 3 maybe problematic, even being close at 20 feet, there could be some too much wifi over lap here. Any chance of getting RBS2 ethernet connected so you could move them farther away from the RBR and each other?
Just curious on RBS 1 and 2, If you turned these OFF temporarily, would you see problems here?
The thick walls also make routing ethernet tricky, but I managed to route two ethernet cables from the RBR to the RBSs numbers 1 and 3. The other RBSs run of wireless backhaul. They are all arranged in hub/spoke orientation, apart from 5, which is daisy chained from 4. 5 is in a garage with a clear line of sight and works pretty reliably.
So I was running a mixed ethernet/wireless backhaul, but have since ditched the wired part and it's all 5GHz now. The whole network was generally less stable when these two ethernet backhauls were connected. Devices took longer to connect, sometimes several minutes, and would drop connections. Pings and speeds were less.
This maybe indicitive of the RBS not having good ethernet connections to the RBR via ethernet which cables and such would need to be checked, or, Wifi signals and such in the home between all the RBS is too much when ethernet connected. Something to test would be to reduce the RBS that are wireless, then leaving the ethernet connected RBS, test and observe.
Something else to try as well if you can get all RBS ethernet connected. Turn down the power on the RBR from 100% to 25% and test. Being that the RBS would be ethernet connected thus don't need full wifi power, the coverage from each RBS could be reduced to a lower setting, and maybe getting RBS2 moved farther away or maybe reduce the RBS count by one while ethernet connected. I do see the need to keep RBS3 ethernet conneted. Something I do with any Orbi I have, if two RBS are ethernet connected, power goes to 25%. Still get great coverage and operation.
Switch was a TP link SG1005P unmanaged gigabit switch. It's not in there at the moment, but I tried with and without as a test just in case. I only used a switch briefly as a test
This switch has some PoE features as well which is not recommended for Orbi systems. I would recommend something NG next time you want to put a switch in between the RBR and RBS. NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3
I'm aware that a minimum of Cat 6 cable is recommended, I went with Cat 7 to future proof things. The cables are all brand new and shielded/braided.
I followed the link you mentioned about connections.
I've attached a floor plan. Sorry it's quite busy! Hopefully it's all self explanatory.
Over all, there maybe several factors there that could be problematic over time. House building materials, Placement and distances with regards to wifi over lap, wireless or wired. Cabling between the RBR and RBS. Too many RBS deployed, however given building materials at play.
If you think the system run Ok as you currently have it, then I guess keep it that way. Just know this maybe hard to troubleshoot in the future should something happen. For any MESH System. Building materials are definately hard to work with. Nature of that beast.
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
@JamesSimpson I'll second some of @FURRYe38 's comments re: number of satellites. I have a 4500 sq ft house, lots of heavy walls - a basement and 3 floors above it - original house built in 1862, completely gutted and redone in 2010.
I original put the RBR in the basement, where the cable line came in, I put an RBS on each floor. I had nothing but troubles, wired or WiFi backhaul. So, I took a signal checking app on the Mac (two - WiFiExplorer Lite, iAnalyzeWiFi), disconnected the satellites, and started walking around and seeing where signals were strong and weak. I found I could EASILY have strong WiFi throughout the home with just the RBR in the basement, 1 RBS on the 1st floor, 1 on the 3rd floor.
I have seen so many people over-saturate their houses with satellites - it just causes lots of problems.
Here is my procedure for how to figure out optimal location based on signal strength - note, the RBS location needs to be DIFFERENT if you are using wired vs. wireless backhaul! Maybe this will help, I have posted it here before...
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I would highly recommend to do this right, you need a software app that shows real time WiFi signal strength. There are a number of free ones. I use a Mac laptop, and walk around the house running either/both of 2 tools - WiFi Explorer Lite and iAnalyzeWiFi. Both are free and in the Mac App store. I am sure there are comparable tools in the Windows world, if not more of them. Both tools will give a real time view of ALL signals in your house where you are standing. As a bonus, you'll even see neighbor's signals if they are close enough, so it gets really easy to determine channels to set up with the NG routers for 2.4GHz and 5Ghz so that contention between networks is minimized.
Now there's two options with how you do this - you didn't say if your backhaul would be wired or wireless. With wired, pick the WORST signal area that you can get a wire to, to increase the coverage. With WiFi backhaul, pick a STRONG signal area so the backhaul connection is fast and reliable.
I would recommend getting an RBR and 2 RBSs to start. Get the RBR working, walk around with your laptop signal app, and place the second RBS - THAT'S IT. get them both up, and then do some more walking around to see what the final strength is. You can see them in RSSI so it doesn't take any "figuring" to know if the signal is good enough for WiFi. One e that is working, you will know whether you have an area with weak signal to set up the second RBS. Try putting it as far as you can in the apartment from either the RBR or RBS - I think Netgear recommends 30 feet minimum? Others can chime in.
With 2 RBSs in place, just keep walking around checking signal strength - and do some speed tests. Only then will you know if you have an objectively weak signal area demanding a 3rd RBS. Keep in mind as well, if that area for the third (or even the second) RBS is weak but small in size, you may need to reduce the signal power from that RBS so it doesn't overlap - you want it just strong enough to cover the weak area. Note on the two signal apps I mentioned above, I can see signals from each RBR and RBS individually - so I know if I have a strong overlap in a region of the house.
I really think you will be shocked at how few satellites you need - certainly well less than 6 unless your walls are like Fort Knox. I was SHOCKED how strong the signal is, in some cases going to a room directly above on the next floor, but at the other end of the room - it has a lot of interference to get through but it does GREAT.
Good luck and let us know how it goes - but please don't buy 6 RBSs until you know objectively you need them - the overlap in signal between them will destroy the successful operation of your mesh!
Re: Is there any benefit to have a wired backhaul for an Orbi Mesh system?
Thanks all for your comments and help with this. All food for thought.
I should have mentioned that I have been using the WiFi explorer app on my Mac, and did as suggested when working out the optimal placement of my satellites in the first place.
I wan't aware that the firmware update page on the browser based config page was misleading, so will definitely try that.
