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Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

gr8sho
Virtuoso

Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

Hello,

 

I'm tapping the technical expertise of the community.  I've searched through a number of threads and many of them are very situational, and in fact even the genesis of this thread has a situation that has triggered the question.  

 

In a very basic sense, if buying a 400 USD router, one would expect to use it as it was designed full featured.  I'm having some doubts about this premise and it was based on one of the threads I had read.  It went something like, well you have a router already sitting in front of the Orbi, so no need to have a second one doing essentially the same job.    In fact, using Orbi as a router when another router is already in place brings with it some significant effort configuring both routers to work correctly.  Add to that the continuing bungles of firmware, and one can easily question what in fact is the proper and optimal way to set things up.  

 

To go back to the situational point, I look at my own usage of the Orbi, what configuation changes do I implement that make it unique above and beyond what I already have in the ISP router?  And it boils down to one thing, configuring DNS servers.  Others may have more esoteric needs, but I've only utilized DNS changes.  The changes have a number of considerations that touch both performance and privacy.  On the latter, it's difficult to know who to trust anymore when it comes to use of internet and I'll leave that for another discussion, but I thought it might be helpful to provide some context of why I made the change.

 

As I already have a router in place due to my ISP, it certainly seems plausible to revert the Orbi to run as an Access Point only.  I still get the benefits of the superior WiFi and wirelss backhaul.  Double NAT on IPv4 is also eliminated.  But I lose the DNS configurability.  

 

Are there any other reasons or considerations around the use of AP vs router mode I've overlooked in my analysis?  I realize in the end it's my choice and just looking to make sure all the relevant facts are consided in the decision.

 

Thank you.

Message 1 of 17
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

What do you mean by "But I lose the DNS configurability."?  If in AP mode, your DNS configurations would be at the main host router. So you can configure DNS here. Or you should be able to. Might depend on ISP modem feature support here as well. 

 

DMZ or IP Pass-Thru helps in most cases if users what to run two routers on the same line. 

Simplified operation in cases where ISP modems can't be bridged fully or DMZ or IP Pass thru doesn't work, then AP mode would be recommended. 

 

Up to users and there skill level to figure out what works best for them. 

Message 2 of 17
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@gr8sho wrote:

But I lose the DNS configurability.  


I ran my Orbi behind a router for over a year with "no problems", until I wanted to configure VPN so I could manage the Orbi remotely and "ran into a wall".  So you are correct.  "Double-NAT" is not an issue until it is an issue.

 

As @FURRYe38 pointed out, most routers have the same capabilities for defining DNS servers as the Orbi router.  If you post the brand & model number, I'm happy to help look for the User Manual.  Or, a call to the ISP technical support line may help.

 

(I a way, I'm happy that you did not mention a desire to use Armor or Disney Circle, as those features give me chills.)

Message 3 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@CrimpOn wrote:


I ran my Orbi behind a router for over a year with "no problems", until I wanted to configure VPN so I could manage the Orbi remotely and "ran into a wall".  So you are correct.  "Double-NAT" is not an issue until it is an issue.

 

As @FURRYe38 pointed out, most routers have the same capabilities for defining DNS servers as the Orbi router.  If you post the brand & model number, I'm happy to help look for the User Manual.  Or, a call to the ISP technical support line may help.

 

(I a way, I'm happy that you did not mention a desire to use Armor or Disney Circle, as those features give me chills.)


Well, I wasn't thinking of those at all as I dismiss them, more of advanced features like implementing VLANs.  

 

Now to your point of most routers, what we get from an ISP doesn't fall into the realm of "most routers".  The Arris BGW210-700 likely could have the capability of overriding the DNS, but as consumers of the ATT internet product, we are not offered that level of control.  So if I choose to use the Orbi as merely an Access Point, I forfeit the ability to control the DNS.  But because I'm stuck having to use their gateway, I'm still stuck with that box in the middle.  Part of me just wants to throw my hands up in the air and simply comply with the restriction imposed on me and just deal with what I'm given.

Message 4 of 17
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

I'm confused.  The "footer" on the message says:

Orbi RBK50 in Router mode, fed by 100/20 Mbps VDSL2 connected Arris BGW210 gateway in IP Passthrough

 

I thought "IP Passthrough" means that the modem is not routing, in which case the Orbi really needs to be in router mode.

Message 5 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@FURRYe38 wrote:

What do you mean by "But I lose the DNS configurability."?  If in AP mode, your DNS configurations would be at the main host router. So you can configure DNS here. Or you should be able to. Might depend on ISP modem feature support here as well. 

 

DMZ or IP Pass-Thru helps in most cases if users what to run two routers on the same line. 

Simplified operation in cases where ISP modems can't be bridged fully or DMZ or IP Pass thru doesn't work, then AP mode would be recommended. 

 

Up to users and there skill level to figure out what works best for them. 


As I pointed out I think twice, there are cases, especially in a proprietary router given by an ISP, that DNS cannot be controlled.  It's their product and their implementation and they choose what level of control they want to give to their customers.  

 

Also, what constitutes the criteria in your second paragraph.  I can certainly make the case that IP Passthrough works as it's intended.  But it is not true bridge.  I'm still subject to packet processing by the host gateway.  

 

When you say it's up to the user, in fact that is the very basis of the thread, to help figure that out.  Am I giving up anything more than DNS configurability by moving to AP mode that I haven't considered.  If the answer is no, then indeed it's up to me and I can try out AP mode to see if how well it performs for the sorts of things we do here.  There could be some thing I've overlooked, because taking the time to reconfigure the network is disruptive and before I do it I want to make sure I'm not wasting everyone's time.

 

Down the road, the implementation of internet access can change as the service itself changes.  If am offered the ability to put my own router on the internet in the future, I'll likely do it precisely because of the ability to control how the connection works.  But it appears there are cases where that is not possible as is the scenario I'm describing.  I do have the ability to run the Orbi in either mode and I'm looking for all the reasons and facts out there so as to pick one versus the other.

Message 6 of 17
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

Yes I agree, some ISPs and some of these ISP provided gateways don't offer alot in advanced user configurations. Some ISPs lock users out as well. 


As mentioned, you have a gateway modem and you are using IP Pass Thru. This should be enough for you to continue using the Orbi in router mode thus giving you the controls you need to configure at this level if you want to run in router mode. 

 

Yes eventually one would find an ISP that provided modem configurations or support of modem only units thus giving users the ability to connect external routers and do there own configurations with them. If users have these available services in there home town. 

Message 7 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@CrimpOn wrote:

I'm confused.  The "footer" on the message says:

Orbi RBK50 in Router mode, fed by 100/20 Mbps VDSL2 connected Arris BGW210 gateway in IP Passthrough

 

I thought "IP Passthrough" means that the modem is not routing, in which case the Orbi really needs to be in router mode.


You are not confused about the configuration, just about what the terms mean.  One might interpret Passthrough or DMZ+ to be equal to true bridge.  It is not, and it's taken me some significant time doing research and testing to determine at least partially what's going on.  I cannot turn off the firewall completely on the host router either.  It is what it is.  I should point that technical people much more adept than myself go out of their way to remove this box from their active configuration, presumably for reasons of control and performance at least.

Message 8 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Yes I agree, some ISPs and some of these ISP provided gateways don't offer alot in advanced user configurations. Some ISPs lock users out as well. 


As mentioned, you have a gateway modem and you are using IP Pass Thru. This should be enough for you to continue using the Orbi in router mode thus giving you the controls you need to configure at this level if you want to run in router mode. 

 

Yes eventually one would find an ISP that provided modem configurations or support of modem only units thus giving users the ability to connect external routers and do there own configurations with them. If users have these available services in there home town. 


Unfortunately the freedom to configure is not the only consideration in which to choose an ISP.  Cost is a big consideration as well.  And as I've said, as long as I've had my Orbi it has been running exactly as you describe.  But from a purely technical perspective, I'm still not totally clear on what else I'm giving up moving to AP mode.  I'm getting there slowly though.

Message 9 of 17
CrimpOn
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@gr8sho wrote:

I should point that technical people much more adept than myself go out of their way to remove this box from their active configuration, presumably for reasons of control and performance at least.

Now that's a thought.  Last summer, I had a service call with Spectrum over a "Tuning Adapter" problem and during the process the tech decided maybe he should replace my modem.  (Wasn't the problem, but he was desperate.)  I had a UBEE combination modem/router/WiFi with the WiFi disabled.  I said, "Hey, could I have a 'plain modem' instead?", and he said, "Sure."  The new modem does support telephone (as does the Arris), but does no routing, no WiFi, no firewall.

 

If others have replaced their Arris, wonder how they did it?

Message 10 of 17
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

Be aware that historically, DMZ+ when they first came out with it was reported to not be full DMZ or do full DMZ pass thru. Years ago I saw users post about this not working as true DMZ on home class routers work. Something to see and removing the RBR from DMZ+ to see if anything changed behaviors. Besides being in a double NAT condition. 

 

Yes, if users were given the opportunity from the ISP to not use this modem router combo, user should look into getting in to modem only units. These ISP modem router combo units can be a pain to work with. 

Message 11 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@CrimpOn wrote:


Now that's a thought.  Last summer, I had a service call with Spectrum over a "Tuning Adapter" problem and during the process the tech decided maybe he should replace my modem.  (Wasn't the problem, but he was desperate.)  I had a UBEE combination modem/router/WiFi with the WiFi disabled.  I said, "Hey, could I have a 'plain modem' instead?", and he said, "Sure."  The new modem does support telephone (as does the Arris), but does no routing, no WiFi, no firewall.

 

If others have replaced their Arris, wonder how they did it?


Right.  Whereas cable companies (DOCSIS) still offer pure modems to customers, Telcos here in the US typically don't do that AFAIK, at least not ATT.  Of course cable would prefer to rent routers too, but at least the option exists for customers to buy a modem for themselves and avoid a monthly recurring fee, and furthermore use their own routing equipment.  Verizon is a Telco and is a large exception to that rule in that I believe they directly support Orbi.    

As for replacing the Arris, that is not possible whatsoever.  Fiber customers can pursue a bypass, but VDSL customers have no recourse.  

Message 12 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Be aware that historically, DMZ+ when they first came out with it was reported to not be full DMZ or do full DMZ pass thru. Years ago I saw users post about this not working as true DMZ on home class routers work. Something to see and removing the RBR from DMZ+ to see if anything changed behaviors. Besides being in a double NAT condition. 

 

Yes, if users were given the opportunity from the ISP to not use this modem router combo, user should look into getting in to modem only units. These ISP modem router combo units can be a pain to work with. 


Couldn't agree more on all points.  

 

Are you leaning in any direction at this point and give any other points about important loss of functionality I might be overlooking?

Message 13 of 17
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

After exhausting your troubleshooting and trying out different configurations. I believe you be able to go with what works best for you and what works for your needs. If your wanting to be more hassel free, then maybe AP mode is best suited. If your willing to configure more complex configurations, then router mode should work for you. 


You are at the mercy of your ISP modem so with this being some what of a problem, you'll need to take this into account. And if you can get to a no NAT modem configuration, then I presume you'll know the directly you'll want to go. 

Message 14 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@FURRYe38 wrote:

After exhausting your troubleshooting and trying out different configurations. I believe you be able to go with what works best for you and what works for your needs. If your wanting to be more hassel free, then maybe AP mode is best suited. If your willing to configure more complex configurations, then router mode should work for you. 


You are at the mercy of your ISP modem so with this being some what of a problem, you'll need to take this into account. And if you can get to a no NAT modem configuration, then I presume you'll know the directly you'll want to go. 


In case my point is still somehow obfuscated by lack of clarity, I at least want to make it clear there is no troubleshooting involved here.  It is to gain a clear understanding of what is the better way under the conditions where there is no trouble.  Everything works as it is supposed to.  Which is the better configuration?  Implicit in this question is the understanding both Arris and Netgear have a poor trackrecord with their firmware.  These are clear facts in the public domain, but isn't the basis or a consideration of the question.  

 

I continue to think about this on again, off again.  And assuming the choice of which DNS used actually matters, perhaps the question just boils down to having the choice to use one you prefer at the home router level versus the one from the ISP.  Everything else is small potatoes in comparison.

 

If it in fact turns out the DNS matter itself is inconsequestial, then I'll likely just move all the Ethernet traffic back onto the gateway as there is nothing to be gained by using the Orbi.  This means the Orbi's only real job is to handle WiFi Calling support for our mobile phones, and a few straggler streaming boxes I haven't gotten around to hardwiring.  And then from there the last logical step is to just relegate the Orbi to Access Point mode.  

Message 15 of 17
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode

Try both configurations and see what works best for you. Up to users and there skill level to figure out what works best for them. 

Message 16 of 17
gr8sho
Virtuoso

Re: Considerations for using either Router or Access Point mode


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Try both configurations and see what works best for you. 


I'm running in AP mode now.  

Message 17 of 17
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