Orbi AC3000 generally unhappy

[Stinky_W_Teats]

hi, I am struggling with a few issues with wifi on my Orbis: 

1. I have six Phorus PR5 receivers (these are hard-wired to an amp which is connected to wired ceiling speakers around the house and allow your phone to stream music over wifi).  The PR5s randomly show up and vanish in the list of Airplay devices, so i never know what I can stream to or not from my iphone.  These are physically right next to the main Orbi.  The issue seems to be worse when my iphone is connected to the satellite Orbi, but the main one has this issue too.  These have always been a little flakey but now seem almost useless they appear in the list so infrequently.  (They have all been upgraded to the latest firmware) 
2. My ipad seems to have an issue staying connected to the Orbi satellite that covers one end of the house including the master bedroom.  It will disconnect and reconnect from wifi multiple times in a few minutes when I first go upstairs and am reading on the ipad in bed. 
3. Even when the ipad stays connected it sort of acts like it is not.  Wifi is showing full strength but the network is HORRIBLY slow.  i often reload a web page several times to get it to go
4. Just bought an AppleTV yesterday and I can't connect to it over wifi.  It is physically connected by Ethernet to a hub which is plugged into the main Orbi.  It's like the Orbi is not bridging ethernet to wifi? 
5. I was not able to get my iPhone to connect to my Denon AVR but it suddenly started working yesterday.

   The Orbis are at firmware V2.7.4.24 and say no updates are available.  All the other devices are updated to latest firmware/OS version. 

   Any help would be appreciated!

   Here is a diagram of my setup:

    

    

[Stinky_W_Teats · Accepted solution]

Final update:  I bought the Nintendo Ethernet adapter (above) for all the PR5s and they have been rock solid since. 

Given that the MBP does not always appear in the list of AirPlay devices, plus the iPad issue when connected to the Orbi satellite, plus the drop outs on signal on the Orbis, I will lay the blame on the Orbis, but it is not 100% proven. 

Done messing with this, and shame i had to throw money at the issues. 

[FURRYe38]

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?
Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6 is recommended. 

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and 📡 satellite(s)? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR📡 and RBS🛰️ to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.
https://kb.netgear.com/31029/Where-should-I-place-my-Orbi-satellite ‌‌🛰️

What channels are you using? Auto? Try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.
Any Wifi Neighbors near by? If so, how many?

One User Experience/Configuration:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Most-Stable-Orbi-Configuration/m-p/1941087/highlight/true#M970...

Be sure that phones and pads have any MAC Address randomizers disabled while at home:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-App/NETGEAR-Mobile-Applications-and-Apple-Devices-FAQ/td-p/222...

[CrimpOn]

Thanks for introducing the Phorus PR5.  The literature shows units scattered around next to separate audio systems.  Having six in one place is a unique solution.  This is an interesting option for someone who already has audio equipment and wants to stream music to it.  (Instead of, for example, buying Echo or Nest speakers and mumbling, "Alexa, play Rolling Stones.") If the existing audio systems are high quality, then this can essentially turn them into a "Super Echo" for only $30US.

The diagram is well done, thanks.

Basements present awkward issues for WiFi systems:

• Internet Service Providers (ISPs) often deliver service to basements when they use buried cables (rather than overhead delivery), so it is more convenient to locate the WiFi router there.
• Some customers need network service in the basement. (Which is different from "I'll put the computer stuff in the basement because that's where the router is")
• There is no mention of an Ethernet patch panel in the basement, so it might be safe to assume that equipment is not located in the basement "because that's where all the wiring terminates".
• But basements often interfere with WiFi signals to the rest of the house.  "Other end of the house" brings up an image of the WiFi connection between router and satellite having to penetrate the concrete basement wall, through a lot of dirt, and up into the house.
• When the iPad shows a strong signal in the upstairs bedroom, that is because it is relatively close to the satellite.  Those two devices have a strong connection.  It would be useful to know more about the connection between router and satellite.  Does the Orbi web interface Attached Devices page show the connection as "5G Good"?
  See page 99 of the User Manual: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBK50/Orbi_UM_EN.pdf 

[Stinky_W_Teats]

> What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?

The cable modem is not involved in several of these issues, e.g., phone to Phorus is entirely local.  i.e., stream music from iOS Music app to the Phorus. 

> Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6 is recommended. 

Yep, I was a network engineer for many years (but on large corporate gear; consumer stuff is a little alien since they implemented some of this differently (e.g., what Netgear considers a DMZ). 

>What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?   What is the distance between the router and 📡 satellite(s)? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR📡 and RBS🛰️ to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.
https://kb.netgear.com/31029/Where-should-I-place-my-Orbi-satellite ‌‌🛰️

The distance between them is around 50'.  From the satellite to the iPad is around 15'.  The house is typical wood I-joists between floors, 2x4 and 2x6 wood studs, with wood flooring or drywall. 

>What channels are you using? Auto? Try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.
Any Wifi Neighbors near by? If so, how many?

11 and 48, respectively.  I used a scanner to see who else in the neighborhood is using what channels and I am the only on these. 

[Stinky_W_Teats]

>Thanks for introducing the Phorus PR5.  The literature shows units scattered around next to separate audio systems.  Having six in one place is a unique solution.  This is an interesting option for someone who already has audio equipment and wants to stream music to it.  (Instead of, for example, buying Echo or Nest speakers and mumbling, "Alexa, play Rolling Stones.") If the existing audio systems are high quality, then this can essentially turn them into a "Super Echo" for only $30US.

The idea of these is great for whole house audio.  a bunch of them plugged into an amp with 6 different physical amps inside connected to hard-wired speakers.  But in practice there have been headaches such as initially their app had to be used to mimic things like the iOS Music app, Pandora, Spotify, etc.  Later they fixed the PR5s to allow them to show up as AirPlay devices so i can now just use the actual iOS apps.  But they have mostly had this issue of disappearing from the list.  if i can get that fixed i would be a very happy camper! 

>The diagram is well done, thanks.

Thanks.  It's simple but it gets the idea across. 

>Internet Service Providers (ISPs) often deliver service to basements when they use buried cables (rather than overhead delivery), so it is more convenient to locate the WiFi router there

I had that done intentionally since that way i can centralize all the comm gear in a rack in the home theater closet.  (the HT Gear has its own rack)

>Some customers need network service in the basement. (Which is different from "I'll put the computer stuff in the basement because that's where the router is")

Our basement is finished and leads to a walk-out patio and outdoor room, so it is basically just another floor in the house

>There is no mention of an Ethernet patch panel in the basement, so it might be safe to assume that equipment is not located in the basement "because that's where all the wiring terminates"

The problems I am experiencing is all with gear connected with Cat6 cables directly from devices like the AVR receiver directly to the Netgear hub. 

I also have structured wiring but it is not involved in the paths where I am having issues

>But basements often interfere with WiFi signals to the rest of the house.  "Other end of the house" brings up an image of the WiFi connection between router and satellite having to penetrate the concrete basement wall, through a lot of dirt, and up into the house.

The floor between the basement and the rest of the house is standard wood I-joists.  There is not concrete slab between the basement and the rest of the house

>When the iPad shows a strong signal in the upstairs bedroom, that is because it is relatively close to the satellite.  Those two devices have a strong connection.  It would be useful to know more about the connection between router and satellite.  Does the Orbi web interface Attached Devices page show the connection as "5G Good"?  See page 99 of the User Manual: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/RBK50/Orbi_UM_EN.pdf 

Yes, it shows as 5G Good.

[CrimpOn]

Amazon says my PR5 will be here tomorrow.  Was a bit disappointed to see the "mixed reviews" on Amazon.  But, I've spent $30 on a bottle of wine that was 'gone' in less than one hour.  This gadget will provide much more entertainment.(and may replace the ancient iPod Play that provides Christmas Music to our stereo system).

I'm not an AirPlay House, so that aspect is beyond me.  May be worth some internet searching.

If you can tolerate the rambling, this review of the PR5 offers some interesting comments on the device:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87R-y_kNfHM 

Maybe Apple customer forums have general solutions for AirPlay problems.

Devices roaming seamlessly between Orbi devices (or not roaming well) is a frequent topic on the forum.  Once connected to the upstairs satellite, the strong WiFi signal and the satellite being connected as "5G Good" seem at odds with being horribly slow.  Does the iPad seem to work normally in other locations?

There are numerous models of Apple TV.  Which one is this that will not connect to WiFi but has an Ethernet connection?

As an aside, there actually is a newer version of Orbi firmware, v2.7.5.4.  It came out in late February.  Honestly, I doubt that  firmware is responsible for these issues, but one of the comments often made is, "why not update the firmware?"  At some point, Netgear will change settings to make the router "aware" of the new firmware and let the user select to have the router perform an update automatically.  Until then, it is available for users who want to update firmware manually at
https://kb.netgear.com/000065539/RBR50-RBS50-Firmware-Version-2-7-5-4  Instructions for manually updating firmware can be found here:

https://kb.netgear.com/31573/How-do-I-manually-upgrade-firmware-on-my-Orbi-router-using-orbilogin-co... 

[CrimpOn]

The Phorus PR5 arrived and had been installed.  Not the most "user friendly" setup app I have seen, but eventually got through it.  The PR5 is on the network and the Phorus app works as expected.  (Streams Amazon Music to the PR5, etc.)

Note: there was none of that "Must be 2.4G WiFi" nonsense with the Phonus.  Kudos to them.

Was a bit of a "learning experience" finding an Android App (besides Phorus) that will stream to an AirPlay speaker system.  Found that AirMusic works on one of my Android devices and streams music from TuneIn Radio to the PR5 receiver.

Conclusion: I'm stumped.  I see no reason why Phorus PR5 receivers should appear inconsistently on the WiFi network.  Maybe having six of them in close proximity to each other might be an issue? (Can't imagine why.)

Had hopes of concluding, "This is what you're doing wrong."  No such luck.  Sorry.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

Thanks CrimpOn.  Glad you got your working. 

I got my Apple TV working well - the issue was the remote was not recognized so i was trying to set it up from my iPhone and it is much easier from the remote.  It was sort of a Catch-22 - the BT didn't work with the iPhone so i couldn't look at the settings for the remote, and i couldn't get the remote to work either.  There is a procedure to reset the remote then repair it with the Apple TV and that did the trick. 

The Denon also started working after a bit more fiddling with it, plus realizing Airplay is audio-only, whereas i was trying to do video. 

I am going to contact Phorus again, but the other issues still remain too, so i kinda suspect the answer is going to be the Orbis are not working 100% correctly.  The remaining issues are mostly when one device (iPad or iPhone) is connected to the satellite Orbi and the PR5s are connected to the main Orbi. 

Event just using my iPad on the satellite to the internet (across satellite to main Orbi) is still flakey.  Given that, I suspect the issue is Netgear, not Phorus.  Still, Phorus may have seen this before so will check with them.

I looked at settings like QoS and UPnP and those are correct.  Rebooted everything.  No joy still.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

Also: all the PR5s always show up as Connected 5G on the admin console on the main Orbi.  They are there even when my iPhone does not show them as available AirPlay devices. 

They also don't show up in the Phorus app when they are not visible in AirPlay, so thinking this is not an AirPlay issue per se. 

Will need to see if there is a setting for protocols and ports forwarded between the satellite and main Orbi. 

Or if there are any settings on the iPhone for Airplay that may be a factor. But these things are pretty well locked down n terms of being able to do that kind of thing.  Frustrated with the consumer gear 😀

[CrimpOn]

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@Stinky_W_Teats wrote:

Will need to see if there is a setting for protocols and ports forwarded between the satellite and main Orbi. 😀

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There are no settings. Every protocol and port destination go across the router to satellite link.

When there are issues with the PR5s, is it always the same units which are not visible to either Air Play or the Phorus app?

Are there some that always appear?

[Stinky_W_Teats]

It is inconsistent.  Often they all disappear. Other times 1 or 2 of them will be visible.  I often got the PR5 that streamed to outdoor speakers, but not always consistently.  Lately the one showing up more often has been the ceiling speaker for the master bath. 

Actually, my MacBook Pro (MBP) has been showing up in the list of AirPlay devices most or all of the time even when the PR5s vanish form the list.  The main Orbi shows the MBP as connected to it, not the satellite, so it should theoretically be the same situation as the PR5s. 

Wait... the MBP is connected to the main Orbi at 2.4G, whereas the PR5s are 5G to the main Orbi.  I wonder if there is anything possibly amiss with the AirPlay devices connected at 5G?

The satellite Orbi uses 5G back to the main one, but I don't think that would make a difference (especially since the one AirPlay device that usually is visible is 2.4G)

The PR5s will do both 2.4G and 5G but I haven't found out how to switch them' might need to set up 2 different WiFi networks on the main Orbi and limit one to 2.4 as a test.

Also, the PR5s are supposed to support Ethernet via a USB to Ethernet adapter.  might need to try that, since I have a gigabit hub in the rack the PR5s and main Orbi sit on top of.

I emailed Phorus and will report back if they have any suggestions.

[CrimpOn]

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@Stinky_W_Teats wrote:

Wait... the MBP is connected to the main Orbi at 2.4G, whereas the PR5s are 5G to the main Orbi.  I wonder if there is anything possibly amiss with the AirPlay devices connected at 5G?

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The WiFi band that devices use to connect is not significant, except that the 2.4G band is often subject to more interference.  There is no need to 'match'.  (This is similar to the situation with typical Internet of Things (IoT) devices like smart plugs, light bulbs, garage door openers, etc.  They almost always communicate at 2.4G because (a) it reaches farther than 5G, (b) their data needs are modest <almost nothing>, and (c) the 2.4G radio chiips are dirt cheap.  The smartphone app may be connected at 5G, or may even be in Alaska!  Everything goes through the network.)

Phorus actually "stepped up" by equipping the PR5 to use both 2.4G and 5G.

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@Stinky_W_Teats wrote:

Also, the PR5s are supposed to support Ethernet via a USB to Ethernet adapter.  might need to try that, since I have a gigabit hub in the rack the PR5s and main Orbi sit on top of.

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Funny you should mention this.  I just got confirmation from Phorus that some Ethernet to USB adapters will work with the PR5:

That actually should be successful, providing it’s an adapter with the expected Ethernet chipset. We have supplied some in the past, but also those official Nintendo Ethernet adapters, usually labeled for Wii / Wii / Switch will work.

Not certain how a person would verify that products that are generally available (suck as on Amazon) are compatible.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

yep, i was grasping at straws with the 2.4 and 5 question.  I didn't expect it to make a difference, but you never know if there is a bug in the firmware or hardware. 

I found a suggestion to do a factory reset on the Orbi satellite, which I just did, and viola all the PR5s are now visible. 

The weird thing is, my iPhone and the PR5s are all still connected to the main Orbi, so I have no idea how a satellite reset would affect the main Orbi.  This is the level of randomness I seem to be dealing with here... 

We will see how long they stay visible.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

So I took my phone and iPad upstairs, turned off their WiFi, waited a couple of minutes, turned it back on on both, and confirmed they are connected to the Orbi satellite.  All the PR5s show up still. 

And the MBP re-appeared after a couple of seconds too.  This is significant since it always seemed to be the first one to pop up on the list when I tapped the AirPlay icon.  But then again, it may just be random. 

I brought both phone and iPad back downstairs and the iPad switched back to the main Orbi but the iPhone is still connected to the satellite.  So far so good. 

I will see if the AirPlay devices stay visible for the rest of the day... 

[Stinky_W_Teats]

K, so this is interesting:  i was looking at the list of AirPlay devices in Pandora, and it "blipped", meaning the list refreshed and they all vanished for a split second then reappeared. 

I went to the Orbi console and hit refresh and my phone had switched to the main Orbi!  So it appears the Pandora app "saw" that (or more likely the loss of network?) and realized it needed to refresh the list.  I may have caught it in the act. 

I will interpret it as a promising sign that all the AirPlay devices are still visible as the phone moved between satellite and main.  I had a suspicion that the hand-off may have been causing the problem originally, but it was not consistent.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

NOPE!!!  Down to only 2 devices showing, and all of them are connected to the main Orbi.  Maybe this is a Phorus issue after all. 

The Orbi console shows all of the PR5s (including the ones my phone can't see as AirPalys devices) connected at 2.4G now (they were at 5G earlier today). 

I wonder if they lose connection to the Orbi, reconnect, and that messes up AirPlay re-finding them?   I have rebooted my phone without that fixing it, so the issue may be something between the Orbi and the PR5s. 

[Stinky_W_Teats]

my phone is still on the main Orbi.  I can't see the 2 PR5s that were there a couple of hours ago, but see a different PR5, and it is 5G.  the rest are still on 2.4G. 

[Stinky_W_Teats]

As a test, I was going to separate 2.4 and 5 onto separate SSIDs but the Orbi software does not allow that 😞

https://kb.netgear.com/000062547/Can-I-choose-if-my-Orbi-router-broadcasts-separate-WiFi-networks-fo...

From that article:

"After creating your Orbi’s SSID (network name), your Orbi determines whether your device joins that network with 2.4GHz or 5GHz. Some of the factors that determine if your device connects in 2.4GHz or 5GHz include hardware limitations of the connected devices, the distance between devices and your router or satellite (2.4GHz has a larger broadcast range, 5GHz has a shorter broadcast range but provides faster speeds), and obstacles in your environment (walls, furniture).

SSID separation for these WiFi bands is under consideration for future implementation as we continue to add new features to our products."

All of my PR5s are under 2' from the main Orbi, with nothing between them, so I don't know why they wouldn't connect at 5.

[KevinLiT]

Hello @Stinky_W_Teats , 

Welcome to the NETGEAR Community!

I understand that you are having issues with your Phorus PR5 Receiver connecting to the 5Ghz band. This may be caused by the Phorus PR5 Receiver compatibility. The Phorus PR5 Receiver is compatible with the 802.11a/n Wi-Fi wireless protocol. The wireless standard needed for 5Ghz compatibility is 802.11ac.

Best,

Kevin

Community Team

[CrimpOn]

802.11ac is backward compatible with 802.11n

https://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/802-11ac-vs-802-11n-what-s-the-difference-2905251#:~:text=The... 

[KevinLiT]

Hello @CrimpOn ,

Thank you for your response!

The ac standard lives entirely in the 5GHz spectrum. While some more modern routers broadcast 802.11n in 5GHz as well as 2.4GHz they remain relatively rare.

Best,

Kevin

Community Team

[CrimpOn]

I still disagree.  By supporting 802.11ac on the 5G channel, Orbi routers are also compatible with every previous standard for 5G WiFi, including 802.11a and 802.11n.  Yes, 802.11ac makes possible greater speed, but if a device supporting only 802.11n connects, the Orbi will communicate with it at 802.11n.  This has been true for every router since 802.11ac was finalized in 2013.

Both the Original Poster (OP) and myself have connected the PR5 to Orbi routers. The Orbi Attached Devices shows they are connected at 5G, and they function.  (Orbi does not display which 'flavor' of 802.11 each device is using.)

Phorus probably used 802.11n in the PR5 product because (a) the chip is less costly, and (b) they are receiving audio signals.  The amount of bandwidth needed for audio is tiny. There is no need for the greater capacity of 802.11ac.

During the WiFi connection process, both user device and WiFi access point communicate the speeds and features that they support and determine which will be used.  It will be an interesting experiment to capture the actual Probe, Association, and Authentication packets for the Pr5 and compare them with those of a product with 802.11ac. (Will take some time to haul out the gear I use to capture WiFi management frames.)

[KevinLiT]

Hello @CrimpOn ,

"Phorus probably used 802.11n in the PR5 product because (a) the chip is less costly, and (b) they are receiving audio signals.  The amount of bandwidth needed for audio is tiny. There is no need for the greater capacity of 802.11ac". This is the most probable reason why it doesn't stay on the 5Ghz network that is optimal with the 802.11 AC protocol. Maybe the best experiment approach will be to probe the PR5 and Orbi communication. 

Best,

Kevin

Community Team

[CrimpOn]

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@KevinLiT wrote:

it doesn't stay on the 5Ghz network that is optimal with the 802.11 AC protocol.

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I believe this is where the OP started the discussion.  Attached Devices shows all six PR5 units connected to the Orbi at 5G as well as a MacBookPro at 2.4G.  Other devices wishing to use Air Play to send music to one (or more) of the PR5s cannot find them.

If they were disconnecting and reconnecting, then the Orbi log file would show them being assigned IPs over and over.

I agree that investigating the Air Play communications may be a good idea.  First step is probably to find a document explaining how Air Play works.  My guess is this involves devices sending some kind of broadcasts and other devices responding.

[Stinky_W_Teats]

hi Kevin, thanks for  your input, much appreciated! 

Actually, it seems that the PR5s that are connected at 5G are the ones that are visible. 

This may not be 100% consistent but since I noticed this seems to be one of the few consistent things around mid-day yesterday, I have checked several times and the only ones that are visible are connected at 5G. 

e.g., first thing this morning i saw two PR5s, the one for the master bath  ceiling speaker and one for the kids' bath speaker.  Checking the Orbi console, both are connected to the main Orbi at 5G. 

Now about 2 hours later, i only see the kids' bath and it is the only one connected at 5G. 

I think this is validating CrimpOn's point that the various 5G standards are not the issue here. 

My theory is that it is the devices switching from 5 to 2.4 that causes them to disappear form the AirPlay list.