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Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Seanster
Tutor

Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

I have a new Orbi RBK853 system (wifi6) - sorry but the model dropdown did not find this.  Anyway, its 1 router and 2 satellites.  Setup over the weekend, no drama.  Everything is great.  Super fast wifi everywhere.  Running in AP mode as my ISP provided router cannot be bridged, so it is providing DHCP - so this directly mirrors my setup with Apple Airport Extremes.  So no problems...except...

 

I have a Mac Mini directly connected to the router via Ethernet.  No problem, can see it and access it.  But certain software that I run on the Mac Mini is causing all kinds of issues.  I run Roon, which is a multicast network music player - and the whole point is that different endpoints (different computers, IOS devices) can connect to the Roon Core running on the Mac Mini.  But this is not working.  When a roon endpoint tries to connect to the Roon core, it gets to the Router, but the router does not let it past.  It even shows trying to connect to mini at IP address of router - but the mini sits behind behind the router.  IOS devices seem to work fine.

 

Now, for fun I tried unplugging the mac mini from its Ethernet connection and ran it on wifi - and success.  I can connect.  Just for fun, I stuck an unmanaged switch between the mac mini and the Orbi router, and this also works. 

 

So I have to ask the question, after spending €1000 on a new wifi system, do I need to put an unmanaged switch in between a computer and a router to get it to work?  Only thing I can think is that the Orbi firewall (which I have no control over) is doing something even in AP mode (when it should not because my ISP router is firewalled).  

 

Any help here would be appreciated.  I find it ridiculous that cannot connect a device to an Ethernet port on the back of a router and have it function properly. 

 

Thanks

Sean

Message 1 of 20

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Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

I've found the problem.  These Orbi's (and I guess others) do not play nice with energy efficient ethernet.  And what is the default setting for MacOS?  Full-duplex, flow-control, energy-efficient-ethernet.  Manually changing to just full-duplex for the problematic device has completely resolved the communication issues. 

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Message 7 of 20

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FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

When you say the Mac Mini is connected to the "router", do you mean the ISP router or the RBR? 

When the RBR is in AP mode, It would be passing thru all traffic. 

You can try a Non managed Gb LAN switch between the ISP Modem and RBR and connect the RBR and Mac Mini to this switch. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 2 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

The Mac Mini is connected to the RBR.  

 

So Topology looks like:

 

Fiber Optic into ISP provided Modem / Router - handles DHCP

Connection from ISP router to RBR Router running in AP mode

RBR has two satellites.  So Sat1 and Sat2

 

RBR has Mac Mini and Yamaha receiver connected via Ethernet 

Sat1 has no other connections

Sat2 has 2 Synologies connected via ethernet

 

When I run Roon on the Mac Mini, connected to the RBR via ethernet, multicast traffic seems to not be handled very nicely, or IGMP or something is interfering with it (I have no access to any settings as the RBR is running in AP mode).  All settings on ISP router are as they should be.

 

As I said, everything is working fine - except for the Roon endpoints that cannot find the Roon Core running on the mac mini - the RBR is serving up its own IP instead of the IP of the Mac Mini.  Put a switch in between the two and all problems disappear.  Putting the unmanaged switch resolves the issue, but I have absolutely no idea why - as this should not be the case...

 

 

Message 3 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

What happens if you connect the Mac Mini and Yamaha to the back of the main host router and not the RBR? 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 4 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Yamaha works fine (as two the two Synology's attached to the Satellite)

 

Have blown away the app, pulled the mac mini from the RBR, hooked it direct to the ISP Router.  Reinstalled the app.  Same shizzle.  It keeps trying to connect to the RBR IP Address (which is the Orbi router in AP mode).  I don't get it....

Message 5 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

I would contact the mfr of this app and device to see if there is more help and information there. 

You might also open a support ticket with NG as well. Ask them to review debug logs...

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 6 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

I've found the problem.  These Orbi's (and I guess others) do not play nice with energy efficient ethernet.  And what is the default setting for MacOS?  Full-duplex, flow-control, energy-efficient-ethernet.  Manually changing to just full-duplex for the problematic device has completely resolved the communication issues. 

Message 7 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Wow, I didn't know that OSX has that. I'll keep that in mind. Glad you found the fix. 

Yes, we've seen green ethernet on LAN switches cause problems with Orbi systems before. Something to keep in mind if you have any switches in the mix. 

 

Thanks for letting us know. Please mark your thread as solved so others will know. 

Enjoy. Smiley Wink

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 8 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Well the plot thickens.  This morning I woke to a repeat of the connection issues I have been facing.  Again the Roon client application unable to connect to its core on the Mac Mini connected to the RBR850 via Ethernet.  

 

So I went straight to yesterday's solution and opened up the Ethernet Hardware settings on the problematic Mac Mini.  Just for fun, changed the Network Hardware setting from 'full-duplex' to 'full-duplex, flow-control' and presto - as soon as this change was applied the connectivity became available and now everything again working as it should. 

 

Now I have no idea why this is resolving the situation (at least temporarily)......I've reopened my support ticket with Netgear. 

Message 9 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

You might open a support ticket with Roon as well. Let them know about this. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 10 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Have been talking with Roon for a couple days.  However I think i know where the problem now lies.  As between the RBR and the ISP modem is a nice little Netgear GS108PE managed switch, which I am now 99% sure is causing the issues.  Will pull this when the house has finished working today and we'll see if that clears up the last battles....

Message 11 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Ok, let us know. Ya I would directly connect the RBR in AP mode to the back of the modem/router. 

If thats a managed switch, you might check to see if you can disable IGMP and green ethernet protocols on this switch as well. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 12 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Unfortunately this hasn't worked.  Now I have a direct connection between KPN ISP Router and RBR.  But same problem persists. 

 

It is very strange, as when the client (my MacBook Pro) issues a request to the core application running on the Mac Mini (connected to RBR via Ethernet), what I see in the logs is a **bleep**load of refused connections from the IP address of the RBR, not the IP address of the client.

 

When I then toggle the network settings in MacOS, suddenly it gives a connection, and I see in the logs the connection being granted from the client IP - not the RBR IP.

 

So, it appears to me that while the RBR may be in AP mode, it is not passing through the information it is supposed to be.   Or I don't know what I'm talking about....

Message 13 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

What happens if you wire both Macs to the switch connected after the ISP Modem/Router? Don't connect them thru the RBR in AP mode.

@ErnestTheGreat 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 14 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

That one I cannot try as I'm not currently in possession of an RJ45 to USB-C dongle.  But I can drop an airport extreme in between the two with the client MBP on wifi and works as it should.  Do the same with the RBR and I get this connection fight.

 

Wifi blazing fast though, so not all is lost

Message 15 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

I would collect debug logs and have NG support review and forward them to engineering.

You can collect debug logs under the IP address of the RBR in AP Mode/debug.htm

 

There is one similar issue I do see with the RBR in AP mode. My ATT Microcell is on a Line connected to an RBS in the basement. To make the RBS ethernet work correctly this LAN line has to be connected to the back of the RBR and no the main host router. Now with the ATT Microcell tied to this line, I loose the microcell connection with my phones. If I move the LAN line back to the main host router, the microcell serivce works with my phones, however I loose correct status connection with the RBS thats in the basement. Doesn't show up in the RBRs web page. The RBS connection is known configuration with Orbi systems. They need to be connected to the back of the RBR and not in parallel at the upstream host router. So I do see this similar condition when I have my ATTMicrocell connected to the back of the RBR attempting to pass thru the RBR to the main host router. 

 

One other issue that maybe at play here is that when the RBR is in AP mode and the RBS are connected to the RBR thru a Lan switch, the status fails to appear correctly in the RBR. IF I connect them directly wired to the back of the RBR, the status correctly appears. https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-AX/RBK852-Firmware-Update-V3-2-11-2-1-2-13/m-p/1904134/highlig...

 

So there maybe more of a problem with the RBR in AP Mode not passing thru traffic as we would expect it to. Something I don't have a problem with on the Orbi AC 50 series i have. Smiley Wink

 

 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 16 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Well that is exactly what I believe I am seeing - that passthrough is not working as it should (in AP mode anyway) - as the IP's coming out of the RBR to the host should not be its own but of the client connecting to the host.  I've got an open ticket with NG, I am going to write this up proper and get the logs and ship them off.  Thanks for your help

Message 17 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Please include this thread as well in your information to NG. Keep us posted. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 18 of 20
Seanster
Tutor

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Things seem to have stabilized.  This morning I took the final step of updating the CTS/RTS setting to 2347, and for the first time since I've had the Orbi's, Roon is now getting mostly connected properly to its core, and for the first time local playback zones are showing up on all devices.  Yesterday with the network re-wiring at least devices that were directly connected to the network were available for playback, but not wireless devices.

 

So maybe the combination, or maybe just the CTS/RTS setting did the trick.  I'll monitor the logs throughout the day to see if the situation remains stable....

Message 19 of 20
FURRYe38
Guru

Re: Orbi Router with direct connected devices (mega problems)

Good to hear about some progress. 

Yes, the CTS/RTS values changed for unknown reasons. Most of NG other products default to 2346/7. I wish NG would make thise default again. I've never had wifi issues until NG moved to 64 for some reason. 

 

Keep an eye on things. Hopefully this will be the final fix for you. 

My Setup ISP SparkLight | Internet Cable 1000↓/50↑ CBR750 Modem | Wifi Router CBR750(v.7) | Switches NG GS105/8 and XS505M | 

Additional NG HW: C7800/CAX80/CM1100/CM1200/CM2000, Orbi: CBK40, CBK752, RBK50, RBK853, RBK752, RBK953, SXK30 | NightHawk: R7000, R7800, R7960P, R8000, R8500, RAXE500, RAX50, XR450, EX7500/EX7700, GS308v3

Message 20 of 20
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