Firmware V1.12.0.18 Discussion

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nxc wrote:

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rexet wrote:

Thank you for the link to the v2 beta firmware. I have updated both the router and the satelites this morning. Let's see how they behave now.

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Despite having a rock solid v1.12 installation, I went against protocol and went ahead and installed the beta. I immediately ran into issues. Downstream bandwidth dropped from 900+ Mbps to 100.

 

Based on prior experience, I immediately enabled telnet, did the NVRAM wipe, and then did a factory reset and proceeded to reconfigure everything, yet again. Now everything is working fine, just like before.

 

I don't know what Netgear's engineers are smoking, but it sure looks like the upgrade process is broken. So unhappy right now. Even though my network is working fine, I now can effectively assume that every update I want to install just to get security fixes is going to involve a full wipe and reconfigure.

 

NETGEAR: GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!! 😡😡😡

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Hmmm...I replied to this posting already, my reply seems to have disappeared. So I'll try again *smile*.

Sometimes when a router is flashed, memory corruption can result. What the user sees is problematic behavior, and if they were to get in touch with Netgear support, one of the first things that's suggested is to reset to factory defaults, and re-enter the user's configuration. It is common practice with consumer routers that if problems arise after a firmware update flash, manual or automatic, that the router is reset and reconfigured. While Netgear would like this not to happen, I'm sure, it really does happen and there's not much that Netgear can do about it. Kind of a random occurance for the level of hardware that consumers are willing and able to pay for.

So your experience, while not fun, is part of the normal course of long term hardware use. I really hope that your router will be fine from here on out, but I've had to reset my Orbi units here once or twice as well due to problematic behavior, and that's just life. Most times when I do a factory default reset, it's because that's the most expedient way to fix a serious problem. And things are usually good for quite a while after that. I really hope that's the case for you.

I've been solid on 1.12.0.18 as well, and also decided to try the beta.  Working fine without any speed loss (200 down).  I do make it a point that once the router and satellites are up on the new firmware, take everything down and then bring them back up starting with the router.  Haven't had to do a reset or nvram wipe - yet.

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RogerSC wrote:

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Hmmm...I replied to this posting already, my reply seems to have disappeared. So I'll try again *smile*.

 

Sometimes when a router is flashed, memory corruption can result. What the user sees is problematic behavior, and if they were to get in touch with Netgear support, one of the first things that's suggested is to reset to factory defaults, and re-enter the user's configuration. It is common practice with consumer routers that if problems arise after a firmware update flash, manual or automatic, that the router is reset and reconfigured. While Netgear would like this not to happen, I'm sure, it really does happen and there's not much that Netgear can do about it. Kind of a random occurance for the level of hardware that consumers are willing and able to pay for.

 

So your experience, while not fun, is part of the normal course of long term hardware use. I really hope that your router will be fine from here on out, but I've had to reset my Orbi units here once or twice as well due to problematic behavior, and that's just life. Most times when I do a factory default reset, it's because that's the most expedient way to fix a serious problem. And things are usually good for quite a while after that. I really hope that's the case for you.

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In most instances I'd agree with you. But having used many brands of router, and many routers period, including Netgear routers, I can confidently say this is the most trouble I've ever had with a router product. My previous Asus router didn't have any issues beyond not quite covering my home. The D-Link that preceded it was great for the couple years I had it. The Linksys before that was decent, too. None of them had the major stability issues that the Orbi seems to have. Even DD-WRT was more stable during the years I ran it.

Dunno. I just have higher expectations from a $400 product. I'm more or less happy with it, despite my complaints, because when it works it is faster and smoother than anything I've used before. That doesn't mean Netgear gets a free pass for releasing a buggy product, or for its complete silence publicly about the issues the hardware faces.

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RogerSC wrote:

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Hmmm...I replied to this posting already, my reply seems to have disappeared. So I'll try again *smile*.

 

Sometimes when a router is flashed, memory corruption can result. What the user sees is problematic behavior, and if they were to get in touch with Netgear support, one of the first things that's suggested is to reset to factory defaults, and re-enter the user's configuration. It is common practice with consumer routers that if problems arise after a firmware update flash, manual or automatic, that the router is reset and reconfigured. While Netgear would like this not to happen, I'm sure, it really does happen and there's not much that Netgear can do about it. Kind of a random occurance for the level of hardware that consumers are willing and able to pay for.

 

So your experience, while not fun, is part of the normal course of long term hardware use. I really hope that your router will be fine from here on out, but I've had to reset my Orbi units here once or twice as well due to problematic behavior, and that's just life. Most times when I do a factory default reset, it's because that's the most expedient way to fix a serious problem. And things are usually good for quite a while after that. I really hope that's the case for you.

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There is no reason for memory to become "corrupted" during a software update, nor is there any reason for settings to get broken or changed, beyond poor programming practices and/or quality assurance. If changes are big enough that old settings are incompatible then the update should reset settings, not just leave the router half-working The reason we continue to see this so much in consumer routers is the bar has already been set pretty damn low, and we've come to accept that it's normal.

To be clear, the issue nxc is having happens every single time you upgrade to 1.2 or 2.X from an earlier version. It's a defect in the update process that should be obvious if they were testing correctly and it's an issue that I raised with them well over a month ago. It also requires a NVRAM reset, not just a factory reset to resolve.

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scornwell wrote: 

To be clear, the issue @nxc is having happens every single time you upgrade to 1.2 or 2.X from an earlier version. It's a defect in the update process that should be obvious if they were testing correctly and it's an issue that I raised with them well over a month ago. It also requires a NVRAM reset, not just a factory reset to resolve.

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My updates to v1.2 and v2.x were fine, no problems, no need for any settings changes, so it doesn't happen for every update...it is apparently happening to enough people, though, that we're reading about it a lot *smile*. I don't agree about memory corruption as a result of the flashing process, that happens and will continue to happen, as I said, with the consumer-level hardware, my Orbi included. Just because you pay $400 for your router, that doesn't mean that you're getting enterprise level hardware, in this case that means that you're getting more consumer level hardware. You get 2 solid units in the basic Orbi package, which accounts for a good part of the higher price. The fact that when the Orbi works right it provides great wireless, and it has worked well for me nearly all the time I've had it, also makes it worth a little more than the cost of parts to me *smile*.

Anyways, I don't like to argue, I think that we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I don't excuse firmware bugs, by the way, I do excuse problems that happen because the hardware isn't targeted to the enterprise, since I'm not paying an enterprise price for it. I was specifically talking about resetting to factory defaults after a flash, not giving Netgear a pass for firmware bugs by any means. And yes, all router manufacturers should be testing as well as they can manage, and any problems that happen once should not happen again, since regression testing is one of the most important parts of mfr. testing.

I feel that I should add that the Orbi has worked well for me nearly the whole time I've had it, since late last year. I don't do exotic stuff with my router and wireless, but reliability, performance, and wireless coverage are important to me. The Orbi has delivered that for me, I'm sorry that others have had such difficult experiences. Yes, there was functionality that I miss removed from V1.12, but the basics of performance and reliability were still there for me. Again, I'm sorry that too many people had real problems with v1.12.

OK.  I tried to update using the beta version.  Everything seemed to upload OK; however, I'm still showing V1.12.0.18 for both the router and sats.  What am I doing wrong?

RogerSC That's because you're not using VLAN tagging and don't have a gigabit internet connection to test against. It does happen for every update, under the right circumstances. It's a consistently reproducible software defect. 

If the issue was memory corruption, the Orbi wouldn't have specific, reproducible issues, it likely wouldn't function at all.

I've been developing software for over 20 years, including controllers for aerial and submersible drones and other embedded systems. Memory doesn't just randomly corrupt in the way you're suggesting and there are ways of ensuring software updates are applied as intended.

This has nothing to do with enterprise vs consumer hardware, it's a software quality assurance issue and it shouldn't happen.

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scornwell wrote:

RogerSC That's because you're not using VLAN tagging and don't have a gigabit internet connection to test against. It does happen for every update, under the right circumstances. It's a consistently reproducible software defect. 

 

If the issue was memory corruption, the Orbi wouldn't have specific, reproducible issues, it likely wouldn't function at all.

 

I've been developing software for over 20 years, including controllers for aerial and submersible drones and other embedded systems. Memory doesn't just randomly corrupt in the way you're suggesting and there are ways of ensuring software updates are applied as intended.

This has nothing to do with enterprise vs consumer hardware, it's a software quality assurance issue and it shouldn't happen.

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I agree with your point about how I use a router, that's why I mentioned that I don't do anything exotic. 

By the way, I've worked for 45 years with computer software development and hardware, mostly on the enterprise end in OS design work and release engineering. HP, EMC, Intel, etc. I can't agree with you on your "memory corruption is only a software issue" point, that isn't my experience with flashing routers. So it goes.

No more from me on this one.

Please - somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong.  I'm typing this quickly, because I don't know when this Orbi is going to drop my connection again.  I tried to update my satellites and then my router to the beta.  Obviously, it didn't take, because it is still showing V1.12.0.18 on all devices.  I've done a reset on all three devices, but have not done the NVRAM erase settings since before trying the update.  Since trying to update, I'm in the same boat.  Satellites dropping in and out, connections to WiFi devices holding for 30 seconds to a minute or two and then dropping.  I disconnected the satellites again, and that seems to make it more stable.  If I can't resolve this tonight, then I have to go router shopping tomorrow. 

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RogerSC wrote:

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scornwell wrote:

RogerSC That's because you're not using VLAN tagging and don't have a gigabit internet connection to test against. It does happen for every update, under the right circumstances. It's a consistently reproducible software defect. 

 

If the issue was memory corruption, the Orbi wouldn't have specific, reproducible issues, it likely wouldn't function at all.

 

I've been developing software for over 20 years, including controllers for aerial and submersible drones and other embedded systems. Memory doesn't just randomly corrupt in the way you're suggesting and there are ways of ensuring software updates are applied as intended.

This has nothing to do with enterprise vs consumer hardware, it's a software quality assurance issue and it shouldn't happen.

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I agree with your point about how I use a router, that's why I mentioned that I don't do anything exotic. 

 

By the way, I've worked for 45 years with computer software development and hardware, mostly on the enterprise end in OS design work and release engineering. HP, EMC, Intel, etc. I can't agree with you on your "memory corruption is only a software issue" point, that isn't my experience with flashing routers. So it goes.

 

No more from me on this one.

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I never said memory corruption is only a software issue, so please don't present it as a quote. What I'm saying is memory corruption doesn't manifest like this and, if reproducible by applying a software change, can be avoided by changing that process. And even if corruption was happening, there are plenty of means of determining whether a software update has applied correctly and if not, alerting the user or rolling back. I've written, tested and pushed these sorts of updates many hundreds of times. 

VLAN tagging really isn't exotic, it's common for fibre and cable connections.

Anyway, it's not my intention to turn this into an argument, I think we agree that it's not acceptable that users have to telnet to their routers to get them back into a working state after an update, and that this whole crazy process has been taking way too long. 

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DarrellRiffe wrote:

Please - somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong. 

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It's pretty difficult to know what you've done wrong without knowing what youv'e actually done or what you did it to.

What hardware are you using and what process did you follow for the update?

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scornwell wrote:

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DarrellRiffe wrote:

Please - somebody tell me what I'm doing wrong. 

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It's pretty difficult to know what you've done wrong without knowing what youv'e actually done or what you did it to.

 

What hardware are you using and what process did you follow for the update?

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I have the RBK53 -1 RBR50 router and 2 RBS50 satellites.  I downloaded the beta firmware V2.0.0.64, unzipped it, unzipped the two folders (one for the router and one for the satellites).  I plugged in the satellites, found their IP addresses and went to the firmware update.  Loaded the beta firmware (RBS50-V2.0.0.64.img) into the update file section and then hit update - this for both satellites.  Then, I went to 192-168.1.1 (my router) and manually upladed the RBR50-v2.0.0.64.img.  After doing so, all showed V1.12.0.18.  I had trouble connecting the sats, so did factory reset on all three.  Still showed V1.12.0.18, but the sats keep dropping, and WiFi signal comes and goes.  Disconnected the sats, and things are stable with just the router.

Purchased RBK50 set a few days ago and hardware is auto-updated to V1.12.0.18, router connected to BT Smarthub and all parameters are at default settings . Speed has improved but sadly all my iOS devices (6 ipads and iphones in my family) keep dropping wifi on video streaming every few minutes. Thought it was signal strength and bought and other R30 as satellite but couldn't install it at all after 2 hrs of trial. Simply return everything and go back to my slower but reliable set of three AirPort Extremes. 

Voting on my feet to tell this company that no matter how excellent the hardware is and how positive those reviews are, the company simply shouldn't warp the hardware with inferior software and use us as guinea pigs to help them testing "official" but in fact beta version. 

Hello, I am struggling to find the beta download link. Can someone share it again?

DarrellRiffe, I'm glad to hear that you've found a good solution to the problems that you were having. Hope that the Linksys continues to work well for you.

Hello everyone.  I purchased the RBK50 system back in March and it worked fine until the last firmware update so for the last month or so its been sitting in my closet and I am using a single router that is working fine but of course I'd prefer to have my $350 orbi system going.  I have read throughout this thread that some of you were lucky to get a beta firmware sent to you by netgear.  I read that the only way we can get this firmware is to contact support through this forum? I tried that and whenever I input my serial number it shows that my complimentary 90 day support expired in June and it would not let me go any further unless I paid for some premium gearhead support......so am I correct in saying that I will have to wait until netgear releases their next firmware or is there another way I can get access to the beta firmware? any input much appreciated... thanks in advance!

Purely anecdata, but it seems like the best way to get their attention is to give it a one star review on Amazon.  They seem to monitor that much more than they monitor this forum.  

gbjackson, very true actually.

Although I did not leave a review on Amazon UK, I did use it to make contact and had a very quick response when dealing direct.

For that I have to give a big thumbs up to "NETGEAR Support Team" ( thanks Neil )

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Bing-Stroller wrote:

gbjackson, very true actually.

 

Although I did not leave a review on Amazon UK, I did use it to make contact and had a very quick response when dealing direct.

 

For that I have to give a big thumbs up to "NETGEAR Support Team" ( thanks Neil )

 

 

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Yes, Neil is a great guy, and has been a big help!

I'm glad others are having a better support experience than I am. My support guy is friendly and helpful enough, but he takes days to reply to any messages (I'm guessing he's pretty overloaded) and so far all he's offered up is an older version of the beta firmware that doesn't address my issues at all, not that that's his fault. The latest beta doesn't help either.

We're now a week shy of the two month mark and the situation still doesn't look great.

• Mods still haven't responded in any meaninful way, despite regular tagging. To be fair, I don't think there's much they can say. 
• Beta firmware appears to resolve some issues, but just like with V1.12.0.18 most of those fixes don't survive a reboot.
• The workaround which would have kept customers happy in the interim, allowing users to disable auto-updates, has not been implemented and doesn't look like it will be. Thsi is pretty unforgivable given how many customers are asking for it and how simple and quick it would have been to release. Policy first, customers second. 

So it seems Netgear know what we want better than we do and don't feel we deserve any transparency with regard to progress on the issues. This isn't the fault of the mods here, the community or support people were talking to, it appears to be awful, backward, company policy.

I've given up and moved on to Google WiFi, which so far is working great. The backhaul speed is marginally lower, but in real-world usage it's not at all noticable, and it's a happy compromise for a router that doesn't drop the internet connection at least once a day and doesn't have crippled internet throughput for those with gigabit fibre connections. The software is considerably more polished too, if that's important to you.

Unfortunately I can't sell Orbi in it's present state, so for now I'm stuck following this thread. 

Has anybody tried the AmpliFiHD setup?  I am leaning towards trying it.  Tired of the fighting the Orbi.