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Forum Discussion
Orbi - why can't we change channels on satellites?
Wireless design best practice when installing multiple access points in an area is to have non-overlapping channels. So if you have 3 APs (RBR50, 2-RBS50) in an area, for 2.4 GHz, one AP would be cha...
astrojohn wrote:
ALL of my devices?? - nonsense! The cameras are not old, in fact, none of my sticky devices are old.
Devices can be new but have old design and thus do not support wifi roaming standards. Please check in the specs of the devices if they support any wifi roaming standards.
In fact , there is no "standard" for the basic wifi roaming, it's left for every device to choose which wifi AP to choose, so most static devices (like cameras) will not support any wifi roaming at all asuming that the camera will not need at all to roam!
This is not to mention the wifi roaming enhancement standards 802.11k, 802.11v and 802.11r which are only supported in new mobile devices (in iPhone from iPhone 6S and above)
802.11 devices should only seek out a stronger signal and associate with that stronger AP when they reach the minimum bps or RSSI threshold set in the AP or the device. The device will not seek out a new AP - even if it is sitting under a very strong AP - until the connection threshold with the old AP is reached (or WiFi is turned off and turned back on for the device). In WLANs with a wireless controller, the controller can also move a device to a new AP based on other thresholds. There is a slight delay (ms) when that switch occurs, especially when a channel change occurs. It still has to disconnect from the one AP and associate with the new AP - each AP has a different MAC. I am not aware of any reduction in this switching if the wifi channel is the same between 2 APs. It is just like unplugging a wired connection from one switch to another - only much faster. This switch to a new AP should only happen when the device is moving (or some other threshold is reached). If stationary devices are switching APs, something is wrong.
But without channel separation, you are guaranteed co-channel interference = collissions, which impacts network performance. Why guaranteed? The Orbi backhaul is 5 Ghz, which is shorter range than 2.4. The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.
A repeater HAS to use the same channel - because the AP only has one radio! The Orbi is not a repeater.
tln741 wrote:
802.11 devices should only seek out a stronger signal and associate with that stronger AP when they reach the minimum bps or RSSI threshold set in the AP or the device. The device will not seek out a new AP - even if it is sitting under a very strong AP - until the connection threshold with the old AP is reached (or WiFi is turned off and turned back on for the device).........
Exactly!
tln741 wrote:
........ In WLANs with a wireless controller, the controller can also move a device to a new AP based on other thresholds. .........
The controller can't move a device from one AP to another, it can encourage the device to move but can't force it.
tln741 wrote:
....... each AP has a different MAC. I am not aware of any reduction in this switching if the wifi channel is the same between 2 APs. It is just like unplugging a wired connection from one switch to another - only much faster. ......
.....
For a device to move from one frequency to another it needs to "scan" and mesure the level of other frequencies and since devices have only one receiver it will put on hold all send/receive of data during this scanning process which takes time and affects both the battery level of the device as well as the speed of the device (as the data movement is practically zero during this short scanning time). This procedure is not needed -by the device- if moving within the same frequency even if the device is actually moving to a different AP with a different MAC.
tln741 wrote:
......
But without channel separation, you are guaranteed co-channel interference = collissions, which impacts network performance. Why guaranteed? ......
Co-channel interference is price to pay for this design choice and is a compromise taken to optimize the performance. Please tell me how do you see the co-channel interference impact on the performance of your system?
tln741 wrote:
....... The Orbi backhaul is 5 Ghz, which is shorter range than 2.4. The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.
......
Orbi has a 5 GHz and a 2.4 GHz backhaul. If your 5 GHz backhaul gets heavy distortion Orbi will move to the 2.4 GHz backhaul. Please have a look at this brief description of the Orbi radio https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Understanding-Orbi-Radio-Fronthaul-Backhaul/m-p/1671092#M46569
tln741 wrote:
....... The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.
.......
Correct and because of this big overlap choosing different channels for the Orbis will cause a big headache as the devices will just keep moving back and forth.
tln741 wrote:
............A repeater HAS to use the same channel - because the AP only has one radio! The Orbi is not a repeater.
Correct
Finally, I would suggest the following reading for more information about wifi roaming http://iie.fing.edu.uy/~gcapde/pub/WiFi_Roaming_7signal_Whitepaper.pdf
I have 1 Orbi satellite on 1st floor (desk #1) and the Orbi Router on the 2nd floor (desk #2) which is directly above desk #1. I do this because I have a printer on the first floor that is networked but not wireless. At desk #2, the Router signal is -33 dBm and I see the satellite at -44 dBm. This creates significant co-channel interference and causes my Sonos to skip songs. If I turn off the Orbi Satellite, the Sonos does not skip
Assigning different channels on the satellite would solve this problem. Most devices likely never ever switch APs in the home, except if they physically move into a fringe coverage area.
But even when moving/roaming, the device still has to meet a signal threshold to trigger a disassociation, disassociate with orbi 1, issue probes and then authenticate and associate with orbi 2. During the probe process, how does a device NOT scan channels? If the threshold to disassociate is met, the device is looking for the BEST signal from the same SSID, not just a better signal on the same channel. It may even decide 2.4G is better than 5G.
tln741 wrote:
........... This creates significant co-channel interference and causes my Sonos to skip songs. If I turn off the Orbi Satellite, the Sonos does not skip
.......
- How do you have the Sonos speakers connected? Do you use SonosNet (i.e. do you have one speaker or the Sonos Connect Bridge wired to Orbi?)? If that is the case then which channel are you using for SonosNet? In this case the Sonos speakers will be connected using an own mesh network on 2.4 or 5 GHz channel that you choose. If you choose a channel already used by Orbi then you will only have troubles.
- If you are using only Orbi wifi to connect the speakers then I don't see a reason whay you should see such a "skip" issue caused by co-channel interference. I have a mesh audio system from LG (works exactly as Sonos). I have all 10 speakers connected using wifi and they are all working perfectly.
- Please note also that wiring more than one speaker to Orbi will cause loops in the network and will cause you much headaches. If you need to wire speakers you can only wire one and only one speaker.
tln741 wrote:
........ During the probe process, how does a device NOT scan channels? If the threshold to disassociate is met, the device is looking for the BEST signal from the same SSID, not just a better signal on the same channel. It may even decide 2.4G is better than 5G.
If the device moves between APs on the same channel then it does not need to hold the ongoing tx/rx activity to camp on a nother frequency since it sees both networks on the same frequency, and this makes a big difference.
Sonos One connected wirelessly playing a playlist on my smartphone from the Sonos App.
tln741 wrote:
Sonos One connected wirelessly playing a playlist on my smartphone from the Sonos App.
- Ok, so no wired speakers or Sonos bridge at all?
- What type of other wired devices do you have connected to the Satellite? I noticed that the current Orbi software (2.2.1.210) has issues with wired devices and can be sensitive to some devices, please test -for troubleshooting purposes- to disconnect all wired devices and see if you see any improvement,
- The levels of the signals from your router and satellite show that the AP's are too close to each other or the overlapping is too big. For this situation it's recommended to reduce the power of the radio band to reduce the overlapping. Have you tried to reduce the tx power?
Android smartphone. Apple did appear to have a lockout issue. Sonos is saying the issue appears that the Sonos is losing connection to the phone over wifi.
As I mentioned above, please try changing the band's channel to another channel and/or try to reduce the transmission power of the nodes.