RBRE960 Xfinity xFi Conflict

I saw a odd reboot issues last year with both of my 8 and 9 series systems when connected to my CAX80. At the time was using CAT6 UTP. After a bit more research and discussion, was asked about type of cabling. I then changed to CAT6A STP cabling and the mysterious random reboots by both systems stopped happening. Haven't seen this issue since. 

5E is rated up to 1000Mpbs however recommend any connection rates 2.5 or above, please try CAT# STP cabling. Does help to ensure any line issues are shielded. 

Just seems like there is a problem between the 9 series and your ISP modem. Even if the modem is rebooted or restarting mysteriously as well. Does this still happen with the 850 series online or no? 

Have you tried the modem in router mode along with the 9 series in router mode while using the modems DMZ or IP pass thru and does this problem continue in this configuration as well? 

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?

I'll see if I can get some NG review on this. 

Straq KevinLiT 

I'll look into the cable thing.  Seems like a cheap Amazon fix, but I have little hope for that.  Why is Netgear sending the wrong cable with a product this expensive?  I think the ratings of these cables is based also on distance and short patches don't matter - and I'm tempted to try the oldest 1990s cable I can dig out to force the problem - I just don't believe it is a factor.  I have seen bad CATx cables in the past and the symptoms are degraded performance, or they just don't work at all.  Never seen one that was intermittently causing trouble or gremlins.

I agree there seems to be a problem specific to the 960 and the xFi gateway, or else a lot more people would be seeing the problem.  Xfinity even replaced our gateway to make sure there wasn't an xFi hardware issue and that didn't help.  It could be a defective 960.  The first kit I got had a dead Sat, so it happens.  I didn't have the first kit up long enough to know if it was otherwise stable and wasn't capturing logs at the time.

I have not tried the xFi / Orbi in double router / DMZ mode, but that as a solution is nuts.  It might or might not be interesting for more troubleshooting, but I'm not going there unless Netgear Support suggests it and can get some insight into the issue from it. 

All these problems started with the 960 - in retrospect, that's clear now.  My plan now that I know the 850 still works reliably is to start with older 960 firmware, add one Sat, then see how that goes, then escalate to Support.

I appreciate all the suggestions.  What's the best procedure to rollback the 960s after I run down that older firmware?  My system was too new to have had an older version.

NG support would be already suggesting the use of the DMZ for the RBR in router mode with another router in front of the RBR. This is common place. This is long time support troubleshooting and recommended for checking as most configurations has the RBR in router mode. IF the ISP modem can't be fully bridged, then the use of the modems DMZ or IP pass thru is something that is recommended. Long standing configuration that does work most of the time. I've used this on occasion as well. 

Ya anything can happen with these gateways from ISPs hard to tell. 

I would recommend if you can take the RBR to a different location, say friend or family member that has a different ISP modem or service, could be telling and would be recommended to see if the problem follows then possible a faulty RBR could be the cause rather then FW. If the 850 is working and the 960 isn't is telling as well. Try a different location if possible. You seem to be the only one having issues so this kind of points to the 960 and or the interactions between the ISP modem and the 960. 

Downgrade the RBS first then RBR lastly. Use a wired PC and web browser. After the downgrade, power OFF then back ON then after all is ready, factory reset and setup from scratch to help to ensure all things are cleared out and the system has a clean slate to start from. 

This is also under NG review. May want to begin a support ticket as well. 

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bullm00n wrote:

Why is Netgear sending the wrong cable with a product this expensive?  I think the ratings of these cables is based also on distance and short patches don't matter

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The obvious answer is that Netgear is packaging "cables that work" with the product.  You are correct that Cat5E cables are rated to support 1 gigabit at a length of at least 90 meters, and some users have been able to achieve gigabit speeds at longer distances.  (Many years ago, the RS232 spec was rated to 50 ft., but we found that it would work for over 1,000 ft.)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using cables rated for higher speed.

It may be worth looking more deeply into the Xfinity cable line.  The 850 WAN port is rated to 1GB, so the Xfinity will negotiate a speed of 1GB.  With the 960, they should negotiate the highest speed supported by both products, which is 2.5GB (XB7 top speed).  I did not see in the posts what speed Xfinity was promising to deliver (sorry if I missed it).  Cable modems are not my speciality, but perhaps the XB7 is trying to use a speed that the physical cable cannot support only when connected to the 960.

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CrimpOn wrote:

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bullm00n wrote:

Why is Netgear sending the wrong cable with a product this expensive?  I think the ratings of these cables is based also on distance and short patches don't matter

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It may be worth looking more deeply into the Xfinity cable line.  The 850 WAN port is rated to 1GB, so the Xfinity will negotiate a speed of 1GB.  With the 960, they should negotiate the highest speed supported by both products, which is 2.5GB (XB7 top speed).  I did not see in the posts what speed Xfinity was promising to deliver (sorry if I missed it).  Cable modems are not my speciality, but perhaps the XB7 is trying to use a speed that the physical cable cannot support only when connected to the 960.

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The 850 has the same 2.5 Gig port that the 960 does.  Either can take the xFi gateway up to 1400 Gig where it tops out for my subscription (nothing faster offered in my area as far as I know).  Both the 850 and 960 also have 1Gb ports and those work too - no better, no worse.  I'm seriously about to try the crappiest old cable I can find in an attempt to break the 850.  I've been doing networks since 3Com cards and BNC connectors - I don't think it's the cable.

Actually the WAN port is a 10G on the 960 series. Not 2.5G

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bullm00n wrote:

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The 850 has the same 2.5 Gig port that the 960 does.  Either can take the xFi gateway up to 1400 Gig where it tops out for my subscription (nothing faster offered in my area as far as I know)

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Totally "My Bad". Did not read the Product Data Sheet carefully.  Sort of shoots down that hypothesis completely.

I did not realize that only one of the XB7 Ethernet ports supports 2.5GB:

So, both the 850 and the 960 indicate that the WAN connection is 2.5Gbps/Full Duplex?

I have ordered a couple of CAT6A STP patch cables to try. 

I have also connected the 850 to the xFi gateway with a late 1990s 10-foot CAT5 UTP cable. Pretty sure it came from where I used to work. Retention clip on one end is busted, of course, but it's stuck in the port well enough.  I'm curious to see what impact an actual out of date, out of spec cable has.  Speedtest on the Orbi app hitting 1350-1400 Mbps - we'll see how it does overnight.  I will say when I switched the patch cable the 850 went purple only for as long as it was unplugged, 10 seconds or less, and by the time I turned it back around after plugging in, it was back online and didn't even trigger a logged connect event or freak out any of the IoTs.  Even my Sonos stream I had playing didn't glitch out.

Hope to get to the 960 firmware downgraded by Thursday.

Firmware downgrade was easy enough:

- reset 960 Router with a pin.

- performed a quick default setup with the Orbi App

- connected PC to default temp SSID

- Downgraded Sat1 / Downgraded Sat 2

- Downgraded RBR

- done

I do find the setup lately to be very simple compared to what I recall from a few years ago - everything just works.  I didn't even power down the 850 while downgrading the 960 since it had its own SSID creating its own LAN that I was able to connect to via WIFI and get it all done without disrupting the main LAN. Nice.

I'll do the final setup once I get the new patch cables. I don't expect they will make a difference, but I also don't expect they will cause any issues either, so no harm.

850 is still humming away even with the decades old "Y2K" Cat5 patch cable. 😄   For anyone looking for a mature and very solid setup, the Orbi 850 is impressive. 

RBRE960 Up and running Firmware Version: V6.3.7.5_3.2.25 and connected to xFi and Main Netgear Switch with 3-foot CAT6A STP patch cables.

One Sat connected over WIFI.  I'll add the other one in a few days if all is stable.

Basically, the same configuration as the 850 setup except for the new patch cables, which seem very nice. 

What mode is the RBR in? AP or Router? 

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FURRYe38 wrote:

What mode is the RBR in? AP or Router? 

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I'm keeping it in Router mode for now, like I had the 850. 

Are you using the modems DMZ or IP pass thru for the RBR in router mode. Would be recommended to use this for the RBR. 

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FURRYe38 wrote:

Are you using the modems DMZ or IP pass thru for the RBR in router mode. Would be recommended to use this for the RBR. 

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The xFi is in Bridge as it has been since I switched the Orbis to Router Mode.  It's worked solid for 7 days like that with the 850. 

I'm trying to make as few changes as possible and one at a time.  So, for now, replicating the 850 setup as closely as I can with the 950 and with the components located in the same places, etc.  The reset and firmware downgrade was step one along with the CAT6A patch cables.  At this point, if the 960 gets wonky, I can power up the 850 and cut back over easily enough.

The firmware downgrade apparently helped the guy in this post: Re: Logs Cleared on Restart - why? - NETGEAR Communities

I hope it makes a difference here. 

Over the past few days, I have not experienced the Orbi restarts or reconnnects, but....

Now this IPV6 problem that has been apparently a thing I found in several other topics like this one:

When will Netgear fix it's IPv6 problem? - NETGEAR Communities

What I am seeing is similar - if I select Auto-config, I get a 6to4 tunnel. Then I can force DHCP and that gets it working correctly, but only for a short time and then the Orbi IPV6 config page becomes blank, and all the clients lose IPV6. After that, I have to do the Auto-config to 6to4 to DHCP dance again.

During all this IPV6 config and restarts, the Satellite disconnects.  Any devices connected to it lose network access and I have to power-cycle the Satellite to get it back up and connected.

So, this is all new I think - loss of IPV6 and the Satellite not coming back online once the Orbi restarts itself after an IPV6 config change.

I do suspect there could be a correlation with this behavior on this previous firmware and the restarts with the latest firmware.  If there is some xFi / Orbi / IPV6 problem, that may be the root of it, and it just presents differently with different firmware.

Next up:

- test the Orbi 960 restart to see if the Satellite normally comes back up without messing around with the IPV6 page.

- bring the 850 back online to very no IPV6 or Satellite reboot/restart issues.

Does the system work with out IPv6 enabled? 

Try configuring IPv6 6RD instead of Tunnel. 

IPV4 works, so in general it all works without IPV6 even when IPV6 stops working. Nevertheless, this is not normal. I'm 99% sure I was not seeing any of this with the 850, but I'll verify it. Essentially the 960 has been running for the most part without IPV6 because IPV6 stops working within several hours anyway.

I don't know much about 6rd other than Comcast was supposed to phase that out in 2011.  Usually, DCHP works fine and is what is normally set automatically with auto detect - that's what the 850 does.

From what I read on some other posts discussing same/similar problems, firmware updates may have solved it, or working around it by putting the Orbi into AP mode.  And maybe that's why I never saw this problem in the past - I had been in AP for at least a year with the 850.  But now I have the 850 set for Router mode and it will be easy to compare the 850 and 960 setup the same way.  I'm 99% sure the 850 doesn't behave this way and I'm 99.9% sure the 850 Satellite doesn't get lost when I restart the 850 router.  But I'll verify all this later.

It will also be fairly easy to update the 960 to the latest firmware and compare that too and it will be interesting to see if disabling IPV6 on the 960 stops the random restarts.

Just as I was about to try a reboot test tonight to see what is going on with IPV6 and the lost Sat, the Orbi decided to disconnect / reconnect itself and lose the Satellite. 

I did a pin reset on the Satellite.  That seems to do nothing obvious, but didn't know what else to try - maybe it helped - hard to say because of so many strange buggy behaviors like this:

But, in fact, the Satellite is back up as shown here:

The Browser Page shows devices connected to the Satellite, the Orbi App says nothing is connected to it - and the App is correct as the IP addresses shown on the Browser page cannot be pinged.  That and the Satellite is in "zombie mode" again - nothing that connects to it can see the network.  I had to power cycle it again to get it to come back up and be a part of the network.  And now it shows up correctly on the Main Basic Browser page as attached.  When it is in zombie mode, I can ping it, and see it as connected, but it is only "half" up and anything that connects to it doesn't see the network.

 So far, I cannot say this older firmware has been any better, just different issues and plenty of them.

Back to the 850 - no "zombie satellites" and no IPV6 tunnel bug.

And back to firmware V6.3.7.10 on the 960 - and no "zombie sats" or IPV6 tunnel bug either.  V6.3.7.5 on the 960 was a bust - absolutely dreadful.

Next thing to try is disabling IPV6 on the 960 to see if that is what is causing the disconnect/reconnects to the xFi.  There is certainly an issue with IPV6 and V6.3.7.5 with it going into 6to4 tunneling on restarts and after forcing it into DHCP then dropping IPV6 altogether after being up a while.  That issue is fixed with V6.3.7.10, but maybe not completely.  Long night - no more tests for now.

I set up the logs to email me and flag these events like this that happen randomly during the day:
[Time synchronized with NTP server] Tuesday, Jun 13,2023 05:40:17
[Internet connected] IP address: 174.163.83.147, Tuesday, Jun 13,2023 05:40:17

Sometimes they are so brief, they go unnoticed. Other times, cameras and other IoT devices start reporting disconnects/reconnects and we lose internet for a few minutes.

I can bring the 850 back online and it doesn't do this in a weeks' time, whereas the 960 does it several times a day. They are configured as similarly as possible. I have tried everything I can think of, so I'm kicking off a support case to see what the experts can come up with.

I'm disabling IPV6 on the 960 now.  There were big issues with IPV6 on the previous firmware and maybe they are not fully fixed.  I'm going to disable it to see if that helps while I wait for support to dig through my history, logs, and configuration.

Next, I'll take the SATs offline to take them out of the equation.  That will be a bummer coverage-wize, but I'll only have to deal with it for a day at the most to see if there's any difference.

48 hours of no IPv6 and 48 hours of no dropped internet or Orbi restarts. 

I have a support case open and they want debug logs during "an event", so I'm turning IPv6 back on to verify that is the cause of the problem and to get those logs.

Fingers crossed we get this sorted.

In the mean time, talk about deja vu! 😲

Solved: ipV6 disconnecting on Orbi RBR850 - NETGEAR Communities