Re: Netgear Data Collection

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-05-23

The R7800 has this as well.

schumaku · ‎2017-05-23

@FURRYe38 wrote:
The R7800 has this as well.

The "big" data collection, or just the one on the Dynamic QoS feature?

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-05-23

Qos:

Performance Optimization Database

Automatically update performance optimization database

Current Performance Optimization Database on Router

Version: v4.0428.g33cf1a0

Release Date: April 28, 2017

Help improve the Quality of Service feature by sharing analytics with NETGEAR

Click here to learn more about how we collect, use and share analytics information

If I click on the learn more about link:

Help improve Dynamic QoS by sharing QoS analytics information with NETGEAR

The Dynamic QoS feature of your router helps improve your router’s Internet traffic management capabilities through better traffic identification and bandwidth management techniques. Your sharing analytics information helps to improve the feature and provide you better service in the future. Check below to enable sharing of analytics information.

Data Collection, Usage, and Disclosure. If you opt in to sharing analytics information by selecting "Yes" below, NETGEAR will receive the following data transmitted through the router ("QoS analytics information"):

information about what websites or applications are visited by devices accessing the Internet through your router, but not what specific content you accessed, links you clicked on, or other actions you took on the site or application;
the time and duration of Internet use and volume of data accessed;
information about bandwidth, such as bandwidth oversubscription conditions;
the MAC addresses of your router and devices connected to your router; and
the types of devices connected to your router.

We do not associate the above information with information that directly identifies you. NETGEAR uses aggregate QoS analytics information to help optimize our routers for you and others. We may also use aggregate QoS analytics information for marketing purposes.

NETGEAR is the entity responsible for processing QoS analytics information. NETGEAR shares QoS analytics data with its service providers to improve the Dynamic QoS feature and service. NETGEAR requires its service providers by contract to appropriately safeguard the privacy and security of the data and to use the information when associated with a MAC address only as necessary to perform certain services on its behalf or to comply with legal requirements. The QoS analytics information may be transferred to countries other than the country in which the data was originally collected. Those countries may not have the same data protection laws as the country in which you initially provided the information.

Would you like to share QoS analytics information?
By agreeing to share QoS analytics information, you consent to the processing and transfer of your data for the purposes and under the conditions described above. You have the right to withdraw your consent for the collection of your data at any time and free of charge by updating the settings of your router. Note that if you do not consent to the processing of your data, you will still be able to benefit from the Dynamic QoS feature and use your router.

Yes
No

If you have any questions or comments, please contact us through our website at http://support.netgear.com/

TheEther · ‎2017-05-23

@Diggie3, please re-read the text I quoted. They do not collect MAC addresses of your devices, only the MAC address of the router.

GearNetRouter · ‎2017-05-23

Would be great if NG got Edward Snowden to test all new hardware before release. ha ha.

thelemonkid · ‎2017-05-24

I think that NetGear is on the wrong path. I can understand that they would like to catch the information, but I am bothered by things like:

NETGEAR is the entity responsible for processing QoS analytics information. NETGEAR shares QoS analytics data with its service providers to improve the Dynamic QoS feature and service. NETGEAR requires its service providers by contract to appropriately safeguard the privacy and security of the data and to use the information when associated with a MAC address only as necessary to perform certain services on its behalf or to comply with legal requirements. The QoS analytics information may be transferred to countries other than the country in which the data was originally collected. Those countries may not have the same data protection laws as the country in which you initially provided the information.

This statement is about QoS data gathered by NetGear. And it is to assure me about the 'good intentions' with which the info is gathered. But it does not reassure me...... It makes me VERY VERY uncomfortable about using Netgear products. And how is it possible that they SUDDENLY change their terms of usage AFTER I bought the router! It seems like blackmail to me. Yes you can opt out. But who will trust a company like this? Will there be no information shared when I opt out? How can I trust this company?

schumaku · ‎2017-05-24

@thelemonkid wrote:
... I can understand that they would like to catch the information, but I am bothered by things like:

NETGEAR is the entity responsible for processing QoS analytics information. NETGEAR shares QoS analytics data with its service providers to improve the Dynamic QoS feature and service. ... <snip>

This statement is about QoS data gathered by NetGear. And it is to assure me about the 'good intentions' with which the info is gathered. But it does not reassure me...... It makes me VERY VERY uncomfortable about using Netgear products. And how is it possible that they SUDDENLY change their terms of usage AFTER I bought the router! ....<snip>

Now you are mixing two different things. The quote does come form the QoS analytics on routers with the Dynamic QoS - allowing the QoS analytics was (on the routers I'm aware of) always an opt-in.

Yes, Netgear has aparently added Dynamic QoS to the newer R7000 firmware (I still don't know if the same opt-in is in place as all the R7000 in my management domain are not running Netgear firmware) and later also the subject data collection (opt-out, why ever).

The idea of capturing usage and reliability information is certainly not a bad idea. The terms must be clear, and the exac data items submitted must be made transparent to the users.

Update: Some insight was published here -> https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7000-New-FW-v1-0-8-34-Data-Collection-and-A...

Diggie3 · ‎2017-05-24

1. This thread has turned to a discussion of QOS data, which I think is different than the data NG added in the new firmware.

2. That link is not more insightful. It's basically the same high level as in the original KB, and at least I can't post a reply to that thread. Even after reading it the same concerns as I outlined above are still true.

Netgear just shouldn't be doing this IMO. Nobody actually wants their router leaking information. This is one strength NG used to have over e.g. ASUS and Google WiFi devices.

schumaku · ‎2017-05-24

@Diggie3 wrote:
1. This thread has turned to a discussion of QOS data, which I think is different than the data NG added in the new firmware.

So tell us if the R7000 does have the Dynamic QoS analytics in the dedicated area - otherwise it became part of the Router Analytics.

@Diggie3 wrote:

2. That link is not more insightful. It's basically the same high level as in the original KB, and at least I can't post a reply to that thread.

Sorry, this is nonsesne. The KB does show how to opt-out, while the post linked is (almost) sufficient to take a decision.

@Diggie3 wrote:

Even after reading it the same concerns as I outlined above are still true.

Except of the last question you had, all other questions are related to the mandatory or default along with the router update opt-in.

@Diggie3 wrote:

Netgear just shouldn't be doing this IMO. Nobody actually wants their router leaking information. This is one strength NG used to have over e.g. ASUS and Google WiFi devices.

Install the firmware offline. Disable the feature you don't want your router participating fearing of data leaks. But seriously - Google, FB, Twitter & Co. know more about you already.

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-05-24

Well if you feel that NG shouldn't be doing anything, maybe you need to find a different router Mfr. Though there are some that I presume don't collect any data, I think that NG isn't collecting any private data other then what is seen under QoS and for there QoS feature since NG seems to be using this kind of database to help them in there QoS feature to make users expereinces better when using QoS. I don't think NG is collecting any other kind of data thats private. I think your trying to apply your fears as a blanket concern about any kind of data collection. Most router Mfrs don't collect any private data and maintain good security to prevent threats and problems surrounding this. If you don't feel this is right when using NG, then go with a different Mfr. However, again, you have major sites like Google, FB and all the rest who have more information on your then some router Mfr. Go take a look at what Google Analytics does.

Good Luck.

@Diggie3 wrote:
1. This thread has turned to a discussion of QOS data, which I think is different than the data NG added in the new firmware.

2. That link is not more insightful. It's basically the same high level as in the original KB, and at least I can't post a reply to that thread. Even after reading it the same concerns as I outlined above are still true.

Netgear just shouldn't be doing this IMO. Nobody actually wants their router leaking information. This is one strength NG used to have over e.g. ASUS and Google WiFi devices.

GearNetRouter · ‎2017-05-24

https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/7/14527360/vizio-smart-tv-tracking-settlement-disable-settings Business model?

Theres far more info available from a router than a TV set IMO.

ElaineM · ‎2017-05-24

Hello everybody, here is our latest update regarding Router Analytics Data Collection.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7000-New-FW-v1-0-8-34-Data-Collection-and-A...

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-05-24

Elaine

IP address, MAC address, serial number,

Is this for the router? if so, this post should be more specific... IP address, MAC address, serial number of the router only.

Don't leave any doubts.

@ElaineM wrote:
Hello everybody, here is our latest update regarding Router Analytics Data Collection.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7000-New-FW-v1-0-8-34-Data-Collection-and-A...

ElaineM · ‎2017-05-24

I am waiting for a clarification on that.

Diggie3 · ‎2017-05-24

@ElaineM Why can't you just post a complete example of the payload with all the possible fields filled?

mman454 · ‎2017-06-02

What I'm wondering is why Netgear is only using the R7000 routers for firmware analytics. Is there some fundamental issue with the R7000 firmware that they are trying to nail down? Is this just part of a phased roll out to other models? If this is a phased roll out to all models, I would like to ask why the R7000 router was chosen, despite Netgear having more powerful consumer routers.

GearNetRouter · ‎2017-06-02

R7000 probably has the largest installed user base and a mature hardware product so my guess is makes most sense to roll it out on the R7000 first.

This reminds me of the VZIO TV scandal.

Diggie3 · ‎2017-06-02

Don't be crazy. You don't roll out a feature that might upset people to your early adopters who buy your most expensive products!

William10a · ‎2017-06-02

It may have not been their plan to cause all this go between over sampling of your routers traffic but that's is what is happening in the end your isp has the some amount or more data on your interent usage and searches. No bodies life is sercet any more from the minute you are borned until the day you die there is a record of every interaction with the outside world if they have your secial sercurity number they have you.

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-06-04

If you read my prior post, the anylytics are for QoS only and it's also seen on my R7800 as well.

@mman454 wrote:
What I'm wondering is why Netgear is only using the R7000 routers for firmware analytics. Is there some fundamental issue with the R7000 firmware that they are trying to nail down? Is this just part of a phased roll out to other models? If this is a phased roll out to all models, I would like to ask why the R7000 router was chosen, despite Netgear having more powerful consumer routers.

Diggie3 · ‎2017-06-04

They clearly are not purely for QoS.

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-06-04

And are you are sure of this how?

Diggie3 · ‎2017-06-04

Because a) some of that data is not QoS related and b) Netgear straight up say as much on their own KB, which is linked in a reply to you above.

FURRYe38 · ‎2017-06-04

And your sure about that?

Diggie3 · ‎2017-06-04

What do you mean am I sure about it?

Is your role in this thread to create confusion?

There are two sets of analytics:
1. For improving QoS feature, strictly related to QoS.
2. Additional analytics added to the R7000 and described on Netgear's KB as linked above. This is what people are not happy with.

I don't know how it can be any clearer. People who are here talking about QoS and/or models that aren't the R7000 are in the wrong place.