Wireless devices connected to same AP can't see each other

[NK1]

I have  and MR60 and two MS60. If two wireless devices are connected to the network via the MR60 they can not see each other / connect to each other / access each other. However both devices can be seen and  and see/access any wired device or any device connected to one of the on of the MS60. When this happens, if one of the devices is movable (phone, tablet, laptop) and I  move closer to one of the MS60 and get it to connect to it rather than the MR60  the devices magically can see one another, or if it's a device  I can also use an Ethernet cable and run one to where I'm using it it can see things just fine. I'm guessing it happens as well when both devices are connected to the same MS60, but I haven't verified it. Is there any setting that might be causing this that could be changed? Or failing that anyway to force a device to always connect to a specific access point even if its further away? 

thanks for your time, help, ideas...

[NK1 · Accepted solution]

Well I decided to do some additional testing today. I shut down all the MS60 and disconnected the MR60 from the switch. And still all devices wirelesses connected o it had issues. So clearly an issue with the MR60 and how it is routing things.

I spent time going through settings, and found the culprit (though I think it is a different culprit than last time as I don't recall ever messing with it).

under Advance->Security->Access Control  "Turn on Access Control" was checked, rule was set to "allow all new devices to connect" all devices listed (wired and wireless) were set to allowed. 

So nothing obvious that it would be the culprit, but I went I'm testing things...

So I unchecked it and thus disabled Access Control and now all devices connected wirelessly to to MR60 can see see each other.

[michaelkenward]

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@NK1 wrote:

I have  and MR60 and two MS60. If two wireless devices are connected to the network via the MR60 they can not see each other / connect to each other / access each other.

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You expect two devices connected to the wifi to talk to each other? In what way? To share data or just to see that the other one is there?

Most people would be horrified if the phones on their network had the ability to see what the other phones were up to.

If I wanted to get two mobile devices to communicate with each other I would find a way to make the connection on the devices themselves. Bluetooth is there to do just that.

[NK1]

Most people would not be horrified, it's the whole point of a network, for devices to be able to communicate to one another.

So you see Computer A needs to see shares on Computer B.    Device z needs to be able to cast to Cromcast  Y.  In either case If both are wired they see each other just fine. If one is wired and one is wireless they see each other just fine. If both are wireless and one is connected to an access point and one to the router, they see each other just fine. BUT if both are wireless and both connect to the router they can not find each other see each other.

So hey I'm in the same room as my Chromecast and I want to cast a video from my computer/phone/tablet. Makes sense that Z & Y would both attach to the same wireless connection point and get the best signal, however when they do this they can't see each other so no casting c an happen. So I have to turn off the wireless on device Z and move to another area closer to a different access point, turn on wireless, hope it connects to that access point, walk back to the room I was in, hope the signal is strong enough for a decent connection and bandwidth and that it doesn't swap back to the closer and stronger single, in order to cast to the device.

Or hey I have the two systems  A & B and neither are currently connected via Ethernet, and I need to remote into B, or just access a share on B. If A&B are both connected wirelessly to the router can't do either. If I'm at my desk using A with it's dock with Ethernet connection and accessing B which is wirelessly connect to the network, then disconnect from the dock and go wireless, if A gets its wireless connection  from a different AP than B all is good I can keep working, however if it grabs onto the same access point as B, bam they lose connection with each other, shares go down, error messages pop up,  and I either have to go back to the desk or go mess around until I convince A to have a signal from a different access point that is further away and thus less bandwidth reducing transfer speeds between the two devices....

[michaelkenward]

Not sure that I follow all of that, but my experience is that stuff like streaming is a two-way process. You have to set it up on both ends.

The sender and receiver have to establish a recognised connection over the network so that they can talk to each other.

Think of it like this, you are in a a bar, or on a train, and you connect to the local wifi network. How would you feel if someone else in the place and on the same network could see what was on your mobile device?

[NK1]

It is clear you have no clue about networks and how they work, so stop trying to answer this unless you actually have an answer. This isn't about public networks, and this isn't about mobile devices. This is about a secure internal network, where everything works as it is suppose to EXCEPT when both devices connect to the same wireless access point. Do to some issue with the system and I am looking for a fix. Either a good one, make it work correctly, or alternatively make a device always connect to a specific access point so I can keep the devices that need to see each other and accessing each other to do so.

Maybe you need a picture...

 So in this sketch D can see and work with every device but B, B can see and work with every device but D, E can work with every device but I, I can work with every device but E,  and then  A,F, G, H, J, K, L, C, can all work with every device. I need D&B to be able to work with each other, I need e&I to be able to work with each other. There is something going on, which hopefuly is just a setting that is making the MR60 break the network connection between two devices when both are connected to the same wireless access point. making them as if they were on separate networks/subnets even though they are clearly not and every device not wirelessly connected to that access point can see both B & D just like they are suppose to, just B&D can not  see one another. (not 100% sure about e & I as I haven't tested to be sure if issues happen when both are wirlessly connected to one of the MS60s, but it happens to the MR60) Further I thought at one point I found a setting and got it fixed and then after an update it went back to this broken behavior and I can't figure out how I fixed it. So am asking the community.

[michaelkenward]

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@NK1 wrote:

It is clear you have no clue about networks and how they work...

This is quite possible. Sadly, I am not helped in this by your failure to tell us in simple terms what you really want to achieve.

Talk of devices "seeing each other" on wifi tells us nothing about your intended goal.

There can be lots of reasons for asking about that: the answers will depend on  the intended result.

For example, if you were to ask "How do I stream videos from my mobile phone to my TV screen?" then maybe a true expert might be able to step in.

As is often the case, the longer and more complicated the question, the harder it is to work out what is really needed.

There are lots of bright people in this community who know far more than I do about this tech stuff, that they have not jumped in to rescue suggests that they may be as baffled as I am about the "question".

[schumaku]

An informative sketch, and a good problem description to start with. Nothing obvious wrong - this is how such a network should be workable with ease.

Not a Nighthawk Mesh geek however, just an old network infrastructure engineer operating bigger numbers of Netgear SMB APs and switch setups.

From the original design, all these simple "throw-in" WiFi Mesh networks (being Orbi or Nightawk or whatever) are typically intended to operate on a wireless backhaul. Sure, the developers had to include some automatic controls to avid loop(s) in the network - and to my knowledge there is no control (obvious to me at least based on the user manuals) to take any control. While helping other users and community members operating other brands of such WiFi Mesh systems, I've learnt that some vendors strictly refuse what is industry-standard in networking, some clearly say "no managed switches", some say "no STP (spanning tree protocol support active)". At least one popular vendor of wireless speakers caused massive network issues in the past, now they explicitly request STP must be enabled and configured since we unveiled they are using STP on their speaker systems - to avoid (and control) network loops. That's how designs and implementations are different.   

Please give us some more insight - what switches are implemented, what wireless devices are involved, last but not least which not further documented config changes appeared to fix the issue for a while. 

Happy Sunday!

[NK1]

My intended  goal  is for the network to work correctly. And what I wrote says exactly what my intended goal is and exactly what the issue is.  Unfortunately, you came in with a limited understanding of networks and how they work and tried to answer by insulating, because I wasn't asking a simple level issue that you knew the answer to. I've been working with networks for around 25 years, I use to do network administration, had formal training in network infrastructure, use to configure network hardware, etc.. But I've been out of the field for sometime, and when I was in, I mainly delt with wired infrastructure and not wireless and now I just dabble here and there, and of course this is a consumer level device where a lot of settings and controls are dumbed down, hidden, or even not available etc.  

I don't need to know "how to stream..." I need to know why the two devices will not see each other when and only when  they are connected to the same wireless access point, and if there are solutions/work arounds.

I even gave you clear examples of a chromcast and a computer/phone/tablet unable to communicate with one another if both  connected to the MR60 wirelessly but able to if one of the devices was connected via Ethernet or one was connected to one of the MS60 in the network and the other to the MR60.   

In many ways the devices are acting as if they are on different networks from one another when both attached to the MR60 wirelessly, except they clearly are not as every other device on the network that isn't wirelessly connected to that access point can see them just fine. So there is something going on in how the MR60 deals with connected wireless devices that is preventing  data to be transmitted between them, but allows them to communicate to any other device on the network that is not wirelessly attached to the MR60. 

[schumaku]

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@schumaku wrote:

Please give us some more insight - what switches are implemented, what wireless devices are involved, last but not least which not further documented config changes appeared to fix the issue for a while. 

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[NK1]

Thanks schumaku for your reply,

Network wise the MR60's wired connection goes to a netgear GS908E switch  which I have  some servers and computers connected to along with connections running to netgear GS308 switches. Both MS60 units are connected to one of the GS308 and use wired rather than wireless backhaul as the wireless backhaul was  unreliable (as was the wireless backhaul option on the asus ac5300s that another member of the household replaced with this system while I was out of town due to an issue that I'm pretty sure was due to a faulty cable used for the wired backhaul making it default to the wireless backup on occasion....).

Wireless devices include a variety of phones, tablets, "smart" devices (lights, ac unit, echo dot), a chromecast, laptops, a quest2 and I'm prob forgetting things.  TVs, game systems, some computers are all wired.

When I'm on my main work laptop and needing to access a share and/or remote into it for some things and I'm not docked at my desk it's a 50/50 chance that old laptop and my main one will both be connected to the MR60 making it so I can't.  I can remote into another computer that is connected by ethernet, and then from inside that remote connection remote into the computer I actually need access to...

The Chromcast  if it gets its wireless connection from the MR60 and say the phone does as well, the phone goes nothing to cast to, and the google home app says  hey you need to be on the same network to access all the settings. So it's walk to where I'm next to the nearest ms60, turn on and off the phone/tablet/laptop's wi-fi turn it back on so it typically connects to it, then walk back with it and hope the signal stays strong enough and that it doesn't swap back to the MR60 and cast away... 

The computers are the most frustrating part as its  taking up valuable work time, reducing productivity....the chromcast however is just a convenience so while frustrating at least it isn't wasting work time and thus dollars, except when I'm using it for work...

as for what I did in the past, I sadly either didn't document it or can't find the documentation I made. It was some time back and I can't recall what I did or what searches I made to find the info that I thought led to fixing it. I do know when this crept back a few months ago I looked and saw it had updated the firmware ( I thought I had autoupdate off but I guess not). 

[NK1]

Oh and there are wireless printers, which have been having issues lately as well which are prob due to this issue as well.

And I just went to test something, and found my tablet and chromecast right now are both connected to the same MS60, and they can see each other fine. So the issue is only when both devices are connected to the MR60 via wireless.

 So if I do a tracert from one system to another and both are wired, one is wired one is not, both are connected to a MS60 (same or different) one is connected to MS60 and one to MR60 all is well, 1 hop quick and fast. If both are connected to the MR60 get "Destination host unreachable" if using ip address or "unable to resolve target system name" if using computer name.

[schumaku]

Ok, the only thing coming into my mind is disabling the Loop Prevention on the GS908E. The point is these consumer Mesh systems don't come with STP (RSTP, MTP) support, and implement custom tricks to stop loops when having the wireless backhaul (always active, even on a poor connection) and a wired backhaul plugged. 

We have some more active members with a lot more practical insight on the Nighthawk Mesh system - I'm more an SMB and business network person. I hope we can get in some Netgear engineers - nothing obvious causing some connections shutdown (this is what happens on your MR60 and the MS60 WiFi each). @DarrenM please.

[NK1 · Accepted solution]

Well I decided to do some additional testing today. I shut down all the MS60 and disconnected the MR60 from the switch. And still all devices wirelesses connected o it had issues. So clearly an issue with the MR60 and how it is routing things.

I spent time going through settings, and found the culprit (though I think it is a different culprit than last time as I don't recall ever messing with it).

under Advance->Security->Access Control  "Turn on Access Control" was checked, rule was set to "allow all new devices to connect" all devices listed (wired and wireless) were set to allowed. 

So nothing obvious that it would be the culprit, but I went I'm testing things...

So I unchecked it and thus disabled Access Control and now all devices connected wirelessly to to MR60 can see see each other.

[schumaku]

Please allow one clarification: What happens on the LAN within the one and only IP subnet, regardless if the switches are connected, or just the wireless backhaul is active it's all L2 switching - or bridging between the wireless stations and the router/satellite radio. The only routing is on the  MR60 where it does the many2one NAT for the LAN IP addresses and devices, along with the port forwarding.

Are all your MR60 and MS60 operating on the current firmware version 1.1.7.134 (dated from the 2nd January 2023 - so a looong time without mandatory updates)?
 

Either there is something really broken (hard to imagine because of Netgear is selling these kits in masses) - a good starting point would be a factory reset on the MR60 and all MS60 - or I have to find some MK6x system in the free market an buy me a new toy and test bed for the community on Christmas.

[NK1]

Yes, all of them are on that firmware

As I stated, I found the problem it's the "Access control" it was turned on, and for whatever reason when it is on it blocks communication between wireless devices who are both connected to the MR60 but not with wired devices or any wireless devices connected to an MS60. Though nowhere does it seem to indicate that this would behave in such a way. I'm guessing the default state is it for it to be off, so most do not encounter this issue. And with the way the settings it had it wasn't restricting any devices from connecting, so no need to be on, so turning it off causes no issue and fixed the issue I was having 🙂 while I could try and figure more out about it, and am curious why that setting caused this behavior, for now I am done with it until it starts messing up again... 

[FURRYe38]

One other possibility is that for MK systems and Orbi MESH systems, they don't seem to like IGMP or Green Ethernet protocols that are seen on some Managed switches. Some have been able to disable these and has resolved some ethernet connected satellite issues seen with manages switches. Otherwise, it's recommended to use non managed switches between the MR and MS if the MS are ethernet connected. I've had my 60 series connected before and haven't seen any issues in between them. NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3 series switches work for Nighthawk mesh systems