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Forum Discussion
Migrating disks backward from OS 6 to RAIDiator 4.2
I have a failed 424 chassis running OS6. Can I move the disks to an old but operating Ultra 4, running RAIDiator 4.2 in order to retrieve the data on the 424? Thanks.
It's sorta mind boggling to me that one connected device can cause the router to disconnect dozens of wired devices!
I just spent an hour on a response and it vanished when I clicked 'Post'. "Authentication Failed". Arrrggghhh! Let's see if I can remember my response... (See my complaint below about Netgear software)
I am thinking that your NAS might be generating a packet storm (flooding your network with traffic). That could be a result of something installed on the NAS - a misbehaving app for instance. Someone on the Orbi forum suggested something similar, that a device might be sending a stop frame; he suggested perhaps a disconnected USB-to-network adapter. As I mentioned, I am not conversant enough with the inner workings of networking to evaluate this, but taking the 424 off the network is what solved the issue.
Another possibility (hopefully not one you are dealing with) is that your NAS might have been hacked. Scary thought... but I have a ton of devices on the network, and nothing else is misbehaving.
A similar scenario is if your NAS is set up to do cloud sync (google or onedrive for example) - a big upload or download could be taking away all your internet bandwidth. That wouldn't cause any disconnections, but it would result in none of your devices being able to reach the internet. The cloud backup service (CrashPlan) pulls the data from the NAS, through one of the networked computers. Also, the bulk of the data has long since been uploaded and just the changes are going back and forth now -- not a huge volume. And, none of the dozen or so wireless devices, including laptops and smart phones, were disconnected.
Connecting the NAS diskless will let us know if something installed on the NAS is destabilizing your network, or whether it is an unusual chassis failure.
BTW, after the test you want to make sure that you reinstall the disks with the NAS powered down. Glad you mentioned this. I am so used to hot-swapping, I am sure that's what I would have done without your warning. You are good at anticipating pitfalls.
Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi? Yes. The router is connected only to an unmanaged 16-port switch (which is new; my first trouble shooting step after the "outage" was to replace this switch, thinking this the quickest and easiest first step). Then there are smaller switches downstream, for example, a 5-port switch to which four NAS units are connected so they can talk to each other on their own shelf.
Do you have any ports forwarded to the NAS (or alternatively did you put in into the Orbi's DMZ)? No
What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS? I am only using a couple of apps on the NAS, both of which are part of the NAS OS, the backup and the built-in anti-virus. I haven't installed any third-party apps. I use the backup app to pull data from the networked computers, taking that load off the computer processors.
Stephen, the help you provide users is priceless. Netgear builds the best hardware out there, but their software, difficult usability, lack of support response, and lack of OS maintenance for older products is unconscionable. Thank you for the time and effort you put in here.
Fortunately, the red does show up when I quote your post :smileyfrustrated:
whartonw wrote:
Someone on the Orbi forum suggested something similar, that a device might be sending a stop frame; he suggested perhaps a disconnected USB-to-network adapter. As I mentioned, I am not conversant enough with the inner workings of networking to evaluate this, but taking the 424 off the network is what solved the issue.
Yes, I saw that. That would be a bug related to ethernet flow control. If that is the problem (which I don't think is likely), the network won't misbehave when you power up the NAS diskless.
whartonw wrote:
Scary thought... but I have a ton of devices on the network, and nothing else is misbehaving.
Understood. Though if the NAS were in the Orbi DMZ (or had ports forwarded) then it is a possibility. It wouldn't necessarily spread to the PCs.
whartonw wrote:
The cloud backup service (CrashPlan) pulls the data from the NAS, through one of the networked computers. Also, the bulk of the data has long since been uploaded and just the changes are going back and forth now -- not a huge volume. And, none of the dozen or so wireless devices, including laptops and smart phones, were disconnected.
I use CrashPlan in a similar way (with the NAS volume mapped to network drive on a PC). I don't think it's fast enough to disrupt your wired network.
whartonw wrote:
Are you using only one of the ethernet connections to connect to the Orbi? Yes. The router is connected only to an unmanaged 16-port switch (which is new; my first trouble shooting step after the "outage" was to replace this switch, thinking this the quickest and easiest first step). Then there are smaller switches downstream, for example, a 5-port switch to which four NAS units are connected so they can talk to each other on their own shelf.
I don't think you fully understood my question. The RN424 has 2 LAN ports. Did you connect both of them? Or just one? You should just connect one. BTW, it's worth trying the diskless test using both adapters (one at a time, not together).
An ethernet loop can cause a packet storm (for instance, if you had two switches that were connected to each other, and also were both connected to a third switch or the router). So you might want to double-check that you haven't accidentally put in a loop.
whartonw wrote:
What apps (if any) have you installed on the NAS? I am only using a couple of apps on the NAS, both of which are part of the NAS OS, the backup and the built-in anti-virus. I haven't installed any third-party apps. I use the backup app to pull data from the networked computers, taking that load off the computer processors.
That's useful to know. Have you enabled ReadyCloud?
Sorry, I did misunderstand. There's only one ethernet cable connected to the NAS.
I have not activated ReadyCloud, and at the moment don't remember why I did not go that way. I am aware of the service; seems like Netgear was in the middle of dropping an older service and replacing it with ReadyCloud, but I may be making that up. May have been a cost comparison. It's been awhile now. I do remember getting a couple of strong recommendations for CrashPlan.
Do you use ReadyCloud? Like it?
whartonw wrote:
Never considered that. May I ask why, ie, advantages, etc?
ReadyCloud includes some features that OpenVPN doesn't - file sharing, backup, streaming, and sync in particular. But I have other (IMO better) ways in place to do those things. All I really am looking for is secure remote access.
OpenVPN is secure, and gives me full access to everything on my home network when I'm away - not just the NAS. It doesn't depend on Netgear servers, and the quality of service is more predictable than ReadyCloud. The software is free, and it works well with Windows, MacOS, Android and iOS.
whartonw wrote:I like what you are saying. I will dig into that.
As part of it, you need to enable the (also free) ddns service, so you can connect to your Orbi using a hostname.
Recently the provider (noip) started requiring monthly confirmation that you still want the hostname - a mild annoyance, but all you need to do is click on the "confirm hostname" button in the email they periodically send, and then renew the hostname in your browser.
Hey.
Sorry for the delay; life kinda got in the way this week.
As you predicted, removing the disks from the 424 and restarting it does not cause network problems. The unit goes into new-device-initial-setup mode.
Should I put in a new disk and start the setup mode, or simply assume hdw problems and start the warranty RMA process with Netgear?
Thanks.
ww
whartonw wrote:
Should I put in a new disk and start the setup mode, or simply assume hdw problems and start the warranty RMA process with Netgear?
I think it's more likely to be something going on with the OS on the disks (and that the hardware is ok). If so, migrating to the Ultra won't help - the problem will move with the disks.
Do you have a local backup, or just the one on CrashPlan?
If you have a spare drive, then installing it and creating a volume is going to help diagnose the problem. If it still doesn't cause the problem with a new volume, then the hardware isn't the problem.
Have you tried an OS re-install?
Reinstalling the OS with the new drive will accomplish nothing. It already has a fresh load of the OS. The OS re-install is for your original volume, in case something in it became corrupt. An OS re-install doesn't wipe all of your configuration, so it won't help if that's where the problem lies, but it's worth a try before going through the hassle of a factory default and re-loading all data, assuming your tests bear out that the hardware is fine.
Yes, the OS that's in use completely resides on the drives, in a separate partition. The flash memory contains a boot loader, which includes the boot menu items, and a fresh copy of the OS whose only purpose is to be copied to the drives, either as a part of initial set-up, or when commanded via an OS Update selection in the boot menu.
Sandshark wrote:
Yes, the OS that's in use completely resides on the drives, in a separate partition.
whartonw: Note the OS reinstall doesn't reinstall the entire OS on the drives, so it might not resolve your problem. But as Sandshark says, it is worth a try.
The procedure is outlined on pages 97-98 of the hardware manual here: https://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/READYNAS-100/ReadyNAS_%20OS6_Desktop_HM_EN.pdf. You can execute it when the NAS isn't connected to your network - but the original disks need to be in the NAS (since the process is reinstalling to the disks).
The OS reinstall will
- Reset your admin password back to password.
- Reset your network connection to use DHCP.
- Disable Volume Quota (which can be re-enabled via the settings wheel on the volume tab).
Other settings (and your data) should be retained. Be careful not to do the factory default by mistake, as that will destroy your data.
Progress Report: Installed and synched 3rd disk (I am just putting in random harddrives that are not being used at the moment, various capacities and brands) and all appeared well, so I put in disk #4 and it's syncing, and everything appears normal. No Ethernet issues, or anything else!
Plan is, if this all goes well, to reinstall the original disks, the ones that were mounted when the network crashed; if everything works, then do nothing (except scream, loudly and long). If the network crashes, try to discover, by trial and error, if one particular drive is the problem; if so, replace it with a new one and resync. If I can't isolate one problem-causing disk, then try the OS reload and go from there.
This is all really mind-boggling...
Thanks, guys.
ww
I want to formally thank both of you for the time and thought you put into this issue. You helped guide my analysis and troubleshooting and saved me much time and effort.
I also feel like I owe you apologies for what turned out to be, I guess, a waste of time, however, I don’t know how it could have been avoided. Although I rebooted the NAS when the crash first happened, that did not solve the problem then.
The system is now back to the exact state it was when everything crashed, and appears to be running normally; the only things that were done in the interim were a couple of shutdowns and the companion re-boots, re-populating the disk drives in-between, first with a new set of disks and next, with the original disk set.
BTW, I double checked, and there are only two apps running on the device, the built-in backup routine and the built-in anti-virus routine; no third-party apps are running on the device.
I am afraid the current group of coders is from the generation of kids that grew up receiving trophies for merely showing up, and with no consequences for tasks not done correctly the first time. Do-overs were the norm rather than the exception. And it appears this same generation has already moved up to the supervisory level as well.
Maybe I am a simply a victim of the “Complainer About the Younger Generation” syndrome, but the differences between my generation of programmers and the current one are stark, and not for the better. We put men on the moon and got them home safely with Hollerith punched-cards, magnetic tape storage, 32,000 (not 32,000,000) bytes of memory and no CPU cycles to waste; no do-overs, just lots and lots of testing before the system went live. Our routines had to fit into now-infinitesimal amounts of memory, and we never re-booted to solve a problem — we single-stepped through the routine, found the problem, and fixed the code — novel, right? Plus, we didn’t leave the de-bugging to the user!
Today, by comparison, the resources at-hand seem endless to me: near-infinite amounts of memory and storage, and CPU cycles so fast you don’t even have to think about them.
And yet, with all this, the software product that goes to market for the most part simply doesn’t work, at least not at first. And of all the hardware with which I have experience, the software that makes it usable from Netgear seems to be the worst.
During our NAS troubleshooting, Stephen and Sandshark, I have also been trying to get my Orbi mesh network to re-pair; the router just spontaneously lost connections with its two satellites. The re-pairing process, according to Netgear, is to perform Step A, Step B, then Step C, which I carefully did, and this yields Result D — except it doesn’t. And there’s no hint about what to do when D is not the result. You are left simply to Repeat A through C, over and over, which was Einstein’s definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, again and again, expecting a different result.
Somebody should hang a poster with the Einstein definition on the walls at Netgear.
End of rant.
Thank you, guys.
The NAS problem was definitely unusual, and I think unexplained. I'm glad it's up and running again.
Hopefully you'll get the mesh operational soon too.
Glad I could help. I don't know anything of mesh wifi systems, so I'm no help there.
I feel your pain RE: the "rant". Having spent 40 years in Fortune 100 corporations and counting the months to retirement real fast, I have a similar view. But I also blame a lot on management. They no longer come from the engineering and production environments, they are MBA's who have no idea what their employees do and believe the crap they learned from professors who have never worked in industry a day in their lives that every business can be run like any other. They strive to maximize the stock price to which their bonus is tied, not customer or employee satisfaction. Why the first isn't tied to the latter befuddles me, but that's why I'm not as rich as Warren Buffett. That drives the rest of the employees, especially the younger ones who have never known anything different, to give them what they want: quick, half-assed but flashy products and updates. As my aunt from Georgia used to say, "lipstick on a pig".
I have no inside knowledge of Netgear, but the output I see from them reeks of that kind of environment. But I stick with the devil I know.
StephenB wrote:
Sandshark wrote:I don't know anything of mesh wifi systems.
I do have an Orbi RBK50 setup. Though the mesh issue (whatever it is) should be pursued in the Orbi forum area.
I'll go to the Orbi forum if I can't get it done myself.
I was just trying to say that all this gear I have was intended to be used as tools to do my real job, which is running the house, taking care of our finances, and feeding my photography habit, but, because of the issues about which I was ranting, instead, I spend almost all of my time being an IT specialist. I am not happy about that.
I appreciate your ears as well as your advice.
ww
Sandshark wrote:Glad I could help. I don't know anything of mesh wifi systems, so I'm no help there.
I feel your pain RE: the "rant". Having spent 40 years in Fortune 100 corporations and counting the months to retirement real fast, I have a similar view. But I also blame a lot on management. They no longer come from the engineering and production environments, they are MBA's who have no idea what their employees do and believe the crap they learned from professors who have never worked in industry a day in their lives that every business can be run like any other. They strive to maximize the stock price to which their bonus is tied, not customer or employee satisfaction. Why the first isn't tied to the latter befuddles me, but that's why I'm not as rich as Warren Buffett. That drives the rest of the employees, especially the younger ones who have never known anything different, to give them what they want: quick, half-assed but flashy products and updates. As my aunt from Georgia used to say, "lipstick on a pig".
I have no inside knowledge of Netgear, but the output I see from them reeks of that kind of environment. But I stick with the devil I know.
-------------
I grew up hearing about that same pig!
We are on the same page. I believe the environment you describe is aided and abetted, if not caused by, all the hedge funds buying the IT companies and the fact that they are only interested in how much profit they can book by next Friday.
Just a final (hopefully!) update:
All problems seem to have been cleared up. Someone at Netgear Support, Kristofer, suggested disabling IPv6 on the 424, which stopped the crashing of the wired connections at the router. Problem apparently solved.
Not long after this, the 424 began to simply vanish from my network. After a lot of trouble-shooting, another Netgear support type, Joe, suggested I disable the anti-virus scans. (one of you suggested this earlier in this thread because of low memory concerns, but I failed to heed the suggestion in the middle of all the other things we were trying. Mea culpa.) Problem #2 solved.
Fingers crossed, but all seems to be working now.
Many thanks again for the time you spent working with me on these issues. You both are real assets to the Community.
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