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RNDP 6000 seems to be short circuiting my UPS
Hello friends, I sure hope somebody can help. And thanks very much in advance. I have a ReadyNAS Pro 6 RNDP6000. I have 6 2TB drives in it. I protect it with an APC Back-UPS XS1500. It's been wor...
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
2. I'm still not clear on the guest access. I'm using admin with my own NAS password to log in to the Admin Page in my browser, so that's not guest, right? If I try and access the shares through my Network, I don't have access whether I type in my browser admin logon or my Windows logon. Neither of these is Guest (it seems to me), so that's confusing
I've already tried to explain this. Right now when you use your windows logon, the NAS offers guest access because there is no corresponding user account on the NAS. That is failing with the new NAS, and that is part of the issue we are trying to fix.
admin is also failing, and we have no explanation for that.
One more setup question though - can you look at your share setting (network access tab, SMB, Advanced), and check the SMB3 transport encryption setting? Make sure it is not set to "required".
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
3. I like the idea of creating an account on the NAS as an alternative to the credential manager but I'm not sure how to do it in the Admin Page. In the Accounts tab/Authentication section, I have entered the name of my workgroup but it didn't change the access issue. In that section are 2 choices for Access Type: Local Users and Active Directory. I can't type in my Windows name and password if the type is set to Local Users. If I set it to Active Directory, I can enter that info but I'm not sure what to put in the other fields.
You don't have an Active Directory server on your network, so you need to use "local users"
Are you saying that if you do that, you can't enter your windows username in the Name field, and your windows password in the Password/Re-enter Password fields? What error do you get when you try to do that?
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
4. Re: pairing: I see how to do the pairing now, thank you. Per your recommendation I disconnected the second NIC but it didn't make any difference; I still don't have access through Windows, only through the browser Admin Page.
My older NAS is paired and using Transmit Load Balancing. Is that best?
With those switches (which are unmanaged), your only choices are transmit load balancing (TLB) and adaptive load balancing (ALB). TLB will increase total download speed (across all users) when there are multiple users, but obviously it can't go over one gigabit when there is only one user (even if that user is another NAS using TLB). It won't help total upload speed at all..
ALB does attempt to balance both upload and download speed across all users, but again it can't increase the single user speed. ALB sometimes can cause your network to misbehave, so if you see connectivity issues using it, the simplest thing to do is to turn it off.
If you often have multiple users accessing the NAS at the same time, then these modes can be handy. For most home users they don't help much (if at all).
The most robust way to max performance with an RN500 or RN600 ReadyNAS is to connect it to a switch that has 10Gbase-t ports, and also connect all your wired devices to that same switch. The cheapest option right now is the GS110MX (8 gigabit ports, and two ports can go to 10 gigabit). It's still fairly expensive ($200), but much cheaper than full 10gbase-t switches (Netgear's 8 port XS508M is ~$500).
If you still need a satellite switch, you could get a second GS110MX, and connect it to the first using 10 gigabit. Then you'd still get max multi-user performance over ethernet.
re: the 'Guest' thing: Sorry, I saw where you had tried to explain this in earlier posts. It's all a lot to absorb. My apologies.
In share settings/Network Access/Advanced: SMB3 Transport Encryption is set to 'Enabled'.
re: Accounts/Authentication: Acknowledged. No Active Directory server on my network. But:
With Access Type: Local Users selected, The Administrator Name and Password fields are inactive. They don't accept input. I can't type anything in there.
re: pairing: I have both NAS units set to Transmit Load Balancing. I'm the only user on this network, so it sounds like I should stick to TLB, if I understand you correctly.
The new NAS has 4 NIC cards in it; if I connected all 4 to the network, does that do anything for speed?
re: switches: I am looking at purchasing 3 GS110MX switches. My wired devices take up almost all of the ports on the 4 switches I have so I'll definitely need to have 'satellites' using the 10 GB ports. Do I need special cabling for all this?
As always, a thousand thanks for your patience and help for this poor noob. I have a lot of questions, I'm trying not to ask them all at the same time.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
With Access Type: Local Users selected, The Administrator Name and Password fields are inactive. They don't accept input. I can't type anything in there.
That is by design. Those fields are intended to let you enter the Active Directory credentials, and you aren't using Active Directory.
What you want to do now is select users (NOT authentication), and then add a new user. Look at the screen shot I posted earlier on this.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
The new NAS has 4 NIC cards in it; if I connected all 4 to the network, does that do anything for speed?
What NAS model did you actually get? I'm thinking it must be a rack mount. It's important to confirm that the model you purchased has a 10GBASE-T before you go with the new switches.
Assuming the NAS does support 10GBASE-T, then there isn't any need to run more than one ethernet connection.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: switches: I am looking at purchasing 3 GS110MX switches. My wired devices take up almost all of the ports on the 4 switches I have so I'll definitely need to have 'satellites' using the 10 GB ports. Do I need special cabling for all this?
You'll need cat-6 or better. cat-5e between the switches would connect, but they would probably negotiate 5 gigabit speeds, not the full 10. Cat-6 runs should be less than 35 meters, if you need to go 35-100 meters, you should use Cat-6a. Cat-7 is overkill, but if you need to run new cable, you could consider it (as it would allow even higher speeds later on).
You will need make one switch central, and connect the two satellites using it's two 10G ports. That means to connect the NAS to one of the satellites. If that won't work, then you'll need an XS508M + two GS110MX. That gives you 8 ports total in the central XS508M. You'd need two to connect to the satellites, one to connect to your router, and a one to connect to the NAS (assuming 10GBase-T in the NAS). That gives you 4 more.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
I'm the only user on this network, so it sounds like I should stick to TLB, if I understand you correctly.
If you are the only user, then you probably aren't benefiting from bonding at all. Though you could still benefit from 10GBASE-T, especially if you also get a 10G NIC for one of your PCs. That might require more 10G ports though. With 3 GS110MX, you'd have 6 10G ports altogether. You need 4 to connect the switches to each other, that gives you one 10G port for the NAS, and a second one for another device.
I use a 10G Asus XG-C100C ethernet card in one of my desktops, and that is working out well. I get ~550 MB/s read speeds with my RN526x NAS. That works out to about 5 gigabits, so I am not limited by the network.
re: add New User: In the Accounts tab I tried adding my windows logon as a new user and got an error:
"User name must be unique, cannot be the same as an existing share, cannot start with a number, and cannot be empty."Further, In share settings/File access, the Folder Owner was set as '1003' and the Folder Group was '65534'. I did some reading in the software manual and tried setting them both to 'admin'. This did not give me access, and it doesn't give me the option to set them back to 1003 and 65534 now. The question is: did I break anything? Could you please talk about this area?
re: my new NAS: Per your recommendation (and thank you for that), it is a ReadyNAS 426. I don't see any mention of 10GBASE-T in the settings for the NICs. Do I pass on the new switches?
re: Asus XG-C100C: It sounds very interesting. At $99 I could upgrade all my machines for about $600; of course there would be another $600 for the switches if I went that way. Correct?
Above all, I seriously need to get my access working for the (new) NAS 426, hopefully similar to what I have with the (old) RNDP6000. With the 6000, All my file pathing is UNC. Or a mapped drive if necessary. The more seamless I can make this transition, the better. And again my thanks.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: my new NAS: Per your recommendation (and thank you for that), it is a ReadyNAS 426. I don't see any mention of 10GBASE-T in the settings for the NICs. Do I pass on the new switches?
I'd missed the spec for 4 LAN ports on that model. In my opinion that is overkill. But none of them are 10 gigabit, it's 4 gigabit ports.
I would pass on the switches then, there's no strong benefit at this point.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: Asus XG-C100C: It sounds very interesting. At $99 I could upgrade all my machines for about $600; of course there would be another $600 for the switches if I went that way. Correct?
Of course you can't upgrade the NAS. As far as switches go, you'd want them all to be multi-G (supporting 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 gigabit). That would put in the XS508M class, which is $600 per switch.
If you want to pursue it, you could get one XS508M, and one GS110EMX (the managed version of the GS110MX). You could then connect all four gigabit NICS to the GS110MX gigabit ports, and set up a static LAG on the switch. The NAS would be set to use round-robin. That would give you 4 gigabits of throughput to the NAS. Then connect to the XS508M with one of the 10 gigabit ports, which would let you upgrade your other six PCs. All the PCs would need to be routed to the XS508M though, so there would be a fair amount of cabling.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: add New User: In the Accounts tab I tried adding my windows logon as a new user and got an error:
"User name must be unique, cannot be the same as an existing share, cannot start with a number, and cannot be empty."Does your windows logon start with a number?
Is there already a share set up with that name?
Perhaps post (or PM me) the windows username.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Further, In share settings/File access, the Folder Owner was set as '1003' and the Folder Group was '65534'. I did some reading in the software manual and tried setting them both to 'admin'. This did not give me access, and it doesn't give me the option to set them back to 1003 and 65534 now. The question is: did I break anything? Could you please talk about this area?
I am thinking you did an rsync backup from the pro to fill the share. Rsync preserves the account credentials, and the Pro owner/group setup didn't match the RN426. Accounts in linux also have numeric IDs - UID for the usename, and GID for the group name. Since there were no corresponding account on the new NAS, it just displays those numeric IDs. I'd suggested setting them to admin/admin on the pro before you did the rsync (at least I intended to).
You didn't break anything. But I think you should go into the file access tab for each share (in it's share settings), and then use the reset option on the lower left. That will reset the owner/group and permissions for all the files in the share.
re: switches: Ok, thanks. I'll pass on them for now. My big concern is access at this point. But thank you all the same for the good info.
re: my windows logon: No, it does not start with a number. None of the shares match it. The logon is a first name last name separated by a space. But the error persists. I looked at the ReadyNAS Frontview for my RNDP6000 (the old NAS) and there are no users added. Does this mean that the only user is admin? I don't even know if this info is helpful.
re: the linux UID/GID: Yes, I did an rsync backup from the pro to fill the share. (And also filled another share the same way, and both copy/backups took AGES. I'll need to know why eventually.)
I use the same admin password on both units, so I don't know why linux would think there was no corresponding account on the new NAS.
I tried resetting owner/group and permissions for each share. Should they be set to guest? Admin? We still haven't been able to create a new user with my windows logon.
Further, I tried the cmd line stuff you recommended earlier and it didn't work. It went like this:
I type: net use * /delete
Result: "There are no entries in the list."
I type: net use t: \\new NAS ip address\data /user:admin adminpassword (same as I use to log in through the browser)
Result: "System error 86 has occurred.
The specified network password is not correct."
At this point I'm willing to try anything. I'm running out of time. I need access. I need to be able to set UNC paths to this new server to do my work. Do I need to try the Credential Manager?
As always, thanks very much for your patience and help.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
I use the same admin password on both units, so I don't know why linux would think there was no corresponding account on the new NAS.
That's not relevant. By default, the pro will set the share owner to nobody, and group to nogroup. Those two accounts don't exist on the new NAS.
Did you use the reset control as I suggested in the previous post?
Can you PM your windows username?
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
At this point I'm willing to try anything. I'm running out of time. I need access. I need to be able to set UNC paths to this new server to do my work. Do I need to try the Credential Manager?
Until this test works, the credential manager isn't an option. Either we need to get past the creation of a new user on the NAS or we need to get past the failure of these commands.
Error code 86 is making progress though. In additon to the questions above, try changing the NAS admin password to ReadyNAS as a test. Since you tried turning Active Directory on the NAS, also try rebooting (with it set to local users). Then reboot the NAS, and try those two commands again.
Okay that worked. I have a mapped T drive. Progress!!!
re: your message: if I take the space out of my windows logon, I'll have to re-do a lot of machines. Can we forget that idea now, I hope?
This is getting better. Thanks!! So what do I do now?
Okay check that question. It appears that I can now get access through the network neighborhood now so it is looking good here. Thanks again for that. What a relief!! Is there any need to add my windows logon at this point?
BTW I'll be glad to give you massive kudos if that matters.
May I ask you a few network speed/'satellite'/connectivity questions?
re: migrating shares for the old NAS to the new:
(FYI) The old NAS and the license server are in the next room on their own satellite switch (the 3rd GS108). The new NAS is here on the bench with my workstaion and it's plugged into one of the 2 GS108 switches here.I am experiencing 2 problems with the migration process:
1. The other wired machines can't connect to my license server when I'm doing these copies, so of course I can't get licenses and can't work.
2. The migration copy/backup jobs are DOG SLOW. Should it take a day and a half to migrate 1.4TB with rsync?Can these problems be due to how I have the satellites set up, and further, would the speed of the migration be sped up if both NAS were on the same switch?
Thank you so much for your good help and advice.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: your message: if I take the space out of my windows logon, I'll have to re-do a lot of machines. Can we forget that idea now, I hope?
Yes.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
So what do I do now?
Next is to add the credentials into the Windows Credential Manager.
Open the credential manager, and then click on "add a windows credential"
Put the IP address of the NAS in the network address field, admin in the user name field, and the NAS admin password in the password field.
After that, create a second credential that has the NAS hostname in the network address field (with the same credentials).
I assume I would be making these credentials on each of my machines? Please confirm. And thanks.
I added the credentials on all my machines and they seem to be seeing everything just fine.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
I added the credentials on all my machines and they seem to be seeing everything just fine.
Great!
Yes, thanks to you, Stephen. Great help. You might have missed these questions upthread (no worries), so I'll paste them here:
May I ask you a few network speed/connectivity questions?
re: migrating shares for the old NAS to the new:
(FYI) The old NAS, along with a few other machines, one of which is my license server, are in the next room on their own satellite switch (the 3rd GS108). The new NAS is here on the bench with my workstaion and it's plugged into one of the 2 GS108 switches here.I am experiencing 2 problems with the migration process:
1. The other wired machines can't connect to my license server when I'm doing these copies, so of course I can't get licenses and can't work.
2. The migration copy/backup jobs are DOG SLOW. Should it take a day and a half to migrate 1.4TB with rsync?Can these problems be due to how I have the satellites set up, and further, would the speed of the migration be sped up if both NAS were on the same switch?
Thank you so much for your good help and advice.
Okay, disregard half of that question.
It seems the license server isn't out of touch anymore. Something to do with the credentials? Anyway, that part of the problem seems to be fixed. Which leaves me with the other half: how much is the speed influenced by how I have the satellites set up, and further, would the speed of the migration be sped up if both NAS were on the same switch?
And thanks!
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Which leaves me with the other half: how much is the speed influenced by how I have the satellites set up, and further, would the speed of the migration be sped up if both NAS were on the same switch?
I get about 50 MB/sec using rsync backup. That's in the reverse direction (the source is my RN526x, the destination is my pro-6), but I don't think that matters much.
You are getting about perhaps 25% of that. So something isn't right. It could be the TLB bonding - so perhaps try breaking that bond on both NAS and see if that helps. TLB could result in the NAS trying to send more than 1 gigabit to a single destination, and in that case you will see packet loss (and a speed slowdown).
Also
- What grade of cabling are you using? Cat-5e or better is needed for gigabit. The cable grade is often printed on the cable (every few feet).
- Was the new NAS still building the RAID array when you were copying data? That will reduce performance.
As far as the general topology goes: Each switch has enough internal backplane bandwidth to maintain full gigabit speed in both directions on all ports of the switch (simultaneously). But the connections between each switch are limited to 1 gigabit, so if you have multiple traffic flows between the switches, those trunks can limit your performance.
If rsync is the only (or dominant) traffic flow, the trunks shouldn't create any issues. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to connect the two NAS to the same switch.
The switch upgrade to the GS110MX would eliminate the trunk bottlenecks, since the trunks would be running at 10 gigabits. That's the main selling feature of that switch.
Well, it copied 1.5 TB overnight so, for some reason, the backup speed has improved. The biggest parts of the migration are finished and I'm a happy customer. This forum has been stellar. All that's left are a few wrinkles:
re: upgrading the RNDP6000 to OS6:
Would you recommend it? This would be the time to do it, I would think. But if I need to double the RAM I could use a recommendation for which chip to buy. Is that something you can do, or do I need to take out the chip and get the specs?
re: incremental backup:
Can you recommend a good tute for setting up incremental backup back to the 6000? Does the operation change if I upgrade the 6000 to OS 6 (along with doubling the ram)?
re: built-in antivirus:
Can you recommend a good tute for installing/using this? I've never had it on the 6000.
re: Admin Page/Frontview:
I think you explained this somewhere but I can't find it. Why does Chrome tell me the connection is not secure?
I'm able to work now and I'm preparing the space for putting both NAS in the same location and they will be on the same switch. I'm pretty sure my cabling is cat5 or better. Once I get the PSU extender cable I'll be able to completely put the 6000 back together. Right now it looks like Frankenstein. It's been quite a ride. Thanks a million times for all your help.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Well, it copied 1.5 TB overnight so, for some reason, the backup speed has improved. The biggest parts of the migration are finished and I'm a happy customer. This forum has been stellar ... Thanks a million times for all your help.
I'm glad I was able to help.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: upgrading the RNDP6000 to OS6:
Would you recommend it? This would be the time to do it, I would think. But if I need to double the RAM I could use a recommendation for which chip to buy. Is that something you can do, or do I need to take out the chip and get the specs?
I believe this would work and is well priced: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002N52ZO4
That is based on this post: https://community.netgear.com/t5/ReadyNAS-Hardware-Compatibility/Memory-upgrade-for-ReadyNAS-Pro-6/m-p/1074063/highlight/true#M14002
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: incremental backup:
Can you recommend a good tute for setting up incremental backup back to the 6000? Does the operation change if I upgrade the 6000 to OS 6 (along with doubling the ram)?
It's the same thing you are doing now, just in the reverse direction. I schedule nightly rsync backup jobs for each share, which run on my Pro-6.
If both NAS are on 24x7, you can also run the backup jobs on the new NAS (using a remote rsync destination). Running them on the source NAS does improve coherency, since the NAS will make a snapshot of the share, and then back up the snapshot. But if you aren't using the NAS off-hours, then it doesn't really matter.
Note you will see an "admin" folder when you access the NAS with file explorer. I suggest not using that (avoiding the need to back it up). It's a "home folder" share, which is locked down to admin. It's easy to back up home, but not so easy to restore it. You can turn off SMB on the home folder in the share settings, and then you won't see that folder.
Converting the pro to OS-6 won't change much.
- It will provide another backup option called ReadyDR. ReadyDR isn't a "highly available" solution - meaning you need to restore the ReadyDR to a fresh share if you need to use it. Rsync maintains a straight copy, so you could immediate cut over to the pro if the new NAS were to fail. Personally I like that immediate cut-over option, so I use rsync.
- OS-6 snapshots are an interesting capability, and allow you to roll back to previous file versions. When created, they take no space, but as files are modified or deleted in the main share, the older version migrates to the snapshot(s). If you do daily backups to an OS-6 system with daily snapshots configured, then you do get reasonable versioning, which you can't get with OS 4.2.x. FWIW, I do recommend using custom snapshots on the NAS instead of the default "smart" snapshots. The problem with the smart snapshots is that they have indefinite retention, which will eat up space over time. Mine are set up as shown below:
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
I'm pretty sure my cabling is cat5 or better.
If you are using any "vanilla" cat5, you should replace it with cat5e or cat6.
Thanks very much, Stephen.
re: upgrading to OS 6, upping RAM
If it doesn't change much, it seems best to just leave it as it is, thanks.re: incremental backup:
I enabled rsync on the important shares on the new NAS. I'm setting up backup jobs on the 6000 and it appears that the first backup is a full one, and from then on it will be incremental. Confirm?Also: Frequently I will be rendering frames to the jobs share overnight. Is it best to disable the incremental backup during these times?
re: home folders:
I turned off SMB for Home Folders but it still has an AFP protocol enabled. Do I need to disable that as well? I'm not even sure what home folders are for.re: snapshots:
I must admit I still don't understand what these are. Do I need them? Are they something like a windows restore point?re: network cabling:
I'm pretty sure I'm up to date, but I will double-check.As always, thanks a million.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: incremental backup:
I enabled rsync on the important shares on the new NAS. I'm setting up backup jobs on the 6000 and it appears that the first backup is a full one, and from then on it will be incremental. Confirm?Yes.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Also: Frequently I will be rendering frames to the jobs share overnight. Is it best to disable the incremental backup during these times?
That suggests that you should run the backup jobs on the new NAS with the pro as the destination. That will ensure that the share is fully coherent (backed up at a single point in time), and eliminate errors when files are locked (or deleted) while the backup is running.
If the rendering puts a big load on the NAS, then you probably should set the backup schedule to at least reduce the contention. Though it should work ok, as long as the backup jobs are on the NAS.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: home folders:
I turned off SMB for Home Folders but it still has an AFP protocol enabled. Do I need to disable that as well? I'm not even sure what home folders are for.If you aren't a Mac user you can disable AFP altogether.
There are folks (often businesses) who want a private storage area for each NAS user (each with a NAS account). This storage can only be accessed by the NAS user and the system admin. The home folders provide that feature.
It's not something I use, and I think most home users are better off without that feature.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
re: snapshots:
I must admit I still don't understand what these are. Do I need them? Are they something like a windows restore point?A bit like that, but focussed on data and not system updates. I tried to describe how they work quite a while ago here: https://community.netgear.com/t5/ReadyNAS-in-Business/ReadyNAS-312-Need-Help-Understanding-Snapshots/m-p/936586/highlight/true#M3041
The basic idea is that a snapshot is a complete copy of the share when it is taken. It takes no real space, because the data blocks in the files are actually shared between the main share and the snapshot(s). Over time, as files change in the main share, the old versions are retained (only in the snapshots), and then they do take up space. If files are modified, then the main share will become fragmented (because the unchanged blocks in the file are still held in common with the snapshot).
If you have shares that have a lot of "churn", then you don't want snapshots enabled for them in the main NAS. Your jobs share might be one in the category. Note that backups run on the new NAS will still make a temporary snapshot before the backup (and delete it when the backup is finished). You could still maybe enable snapshots in the Pro for those shares, but you might want a short retention period, since the shares are still changing a lot from day to day. You can roll back the main share to one of the snapshots in the admin web ui. If the windows previous version option is set for the share, you can also right-click on a file or folder from Windows, and see/restore a previous version of the file.
Thanks for all that, Stephen.
Any comment on the built-in antivirus? Is it something I need? A good place to look for a tute, anything?
Much appreciated, sir.
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Any comment on the built-in antivirus? Is it something I need?
I don't use it - all my files are coming from PCs with their own protection.
One issue is that the only controls over it are "On" and "Off" - no ability to manage what actions are taken, enter exceptions, etc.
Understood, thank you. Now I don't feel bad that I never used anything like that on my 6000.
My friend, I hate to jinx myself but I think we might be done. I'm going to give it a few days, but it looks like I'm set!
I cannot thank you enough for helping me through this mess. Shall I click 'solved' anyplace when I come back?
You guys win the 'best forum I've ever been to' award for sure.
best,
Ken
KenTanker0us1 wrote:
Shall I click 'solved' anyplace when I come back?
That's always good, but might be hard given the length of this thread. Maybe make a short post that lists the issues that were solved, and then make that the "solution".
Well Stephen, I was right to not close out the thread. Nothing wrong with the new NAS, or even the old one as far as I can tell.
But the copy job seems to have doubled the size of the share I was backing up. I assume this has something to do with the backup settings? My impression was that the intial backup would be full and then incremental from there. But the backup job seems to have doubled the size of the share: it went from 1.4 TB to 2.8 TB overnight. It's pretty weird because I can put the 2 shares next to each other in explorer windows and they seem identical; and if I select a random folder inside the share it's the same size and the corresponding share in the new NAS I was copying from. Weird.
So do I need to delete everything in the old share and do a complete backup of it from scratch? Obviously something went wrong. Here ai am thanking you for your help again.
Do you have snapshots enabled on the share?
On the (old) target share I wouldn't know how, so I doubt it has snapshots enabled.
On the new one, I don't think so. In share settings/snapshots, Snapshot Management is set to Smart, but it's greyed out. Shapshot Schedule is set to Never.
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