Double Nat when using AP Mode

[Kmandair04]

I want to use my main fibre gateway router since it has more options and custom options and to do so I did as followed. I put the Orbi into AP mode , and continued to use fibre as main router. Problem was Orbi was still creating a private network and whenever I would play games online I had horrendous lag and bad ping and packet loss. To fix that I had to put my gateway into bridge mode and put Orbi into router, but it sucks because I lose all custom options for my fibre gateway.

[CrimpOn]

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@Kmandair04 wrote:

I want to use my main fibre gateway router since it has more options and custom options and to do so I did as followed. I put the Orbi into AP mode , and continued to use fibre as main router. Problem was Orbi was still creating a private network and whenever I would play games online I had horrendous lag and bad ping and packet loss. To fix that I had to put my gateway into bridge mode and put Orbi into router, but it sucks because I lose all custom options for my fibre gateway.

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When the Orbi is in Access Point (AP) mode, it does not create any network of any kind.  Each of the Orbi units and every device connected to the Orbi use DHCP to request an IP address from the primary router.*

The primary router will create a private network and use NAT to map from the Public IP address to the private IP address for each device.

Depending on the specific game, there may be options to forward ports through the fibre router to the gaming machine.

* An easy method to determine that this is the case is to look at the IP address of every device on the network, including the Orbi router and satellites.  Do the all belong to the same IP subnet (such as 192.168.1.x) and is the fibre router the gateway address?

** The forum is often a handy way to learn interesting information.  Could you expand on what specific features the fibre router provides that the Orbi lacks?  When it comes time to replace my Orbi, it would be handy to have some idea of features to look for.

[Kmandair04]

Thanks For Responding. Yea I do not have much knowledge with some of the stuff and I assumed it was an Orbi Problem or something. Okay so for the solutions, how do i look up the ip address of all the devices. Will the netgear orbi app help with that or do i have to go to orbilogin.net to find out?.  

For the features he fibre router has I just want to be clear its the gateway router my ISP provied us. Main feature is I can make 2.4 and 5.ghz networks with seperate SSID. I can manage all devices including my tv cable which is also from my ISP so its more convinient. I can see how much time and internet usage each device has used and at what time specifcally. Just from the phone app I can port forward, and do some other things that are beyond my knowledge.Its just overall more convinent because my landline, tv cable and internet are all in one place contrallable in the app

[CrimpOn]

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@Kmandair04 wrote:

how do i look up the ip address of all the devices. Will the netgear orbi app help with that or do i have to go to orbilogin.net to find out?.  

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The Orbi app, the Orbi web interface Attached Devices and the ISP's app should all provide the IP address of every device connected to the network. (and, they should all provide the same IP address for each device.)  In your situation, I would turn first to the ISP's app.

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@Kmandair04 wrote:

For the features he fibre router has I just want to be clear its the gateway router my ISP provied us. Main feature is I can make 2.4 and 5.ghz networks with seperate SSID. I can manage all devices including my tv cable which is also from my ISP so its more convinient. I can see how much time and internet usage each device has used and at what time specifcally. Just from the phone app I can port forward, and do some other things that are beyond my knowledge.Its just overall more convinent because my landline, tv cable and internet are all in one place contrallable in the app

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Those are all excellent reasons. Thanks for explaining.  Since the Orbi uses the same SSID for both 2.4G and 5G channels, would it be correct to assume that the ISP router is using a distinct SSID for a 2.4G to be used for Internet of Things (IoT) devices?  If both the Orbi and the ISP router  are broadcasting the same SSID, please be aware that device 'roaming' from Orbi to ISP (and back) will probably not be smooth.  Whereas the Orbi 'knows about' WiFi devices that are connnected to the Orbi units, any devices connected directly to the ISP router will appear to the Orbi to be 'wired'.  (It sees them across the ethernet cable to the ISP router, so that is a 'wire' connection. It has no idea that there is a WiFi component on the ISP router.)

[Kmandair04]

I just went to the orbi web interface and went to attached devices and I saw the ip adresses. All devices connected to the orbi have ip adress starting with 192.168.1.(xx)

For my current setup, I have set my ISP fibre gateway to bridge mode to stop lagging on orbi, so when i go to the ISP interface it says 0 devices connected. Do you want me to disable bridge mode and then see what is the IP adress of the devices that connect? 

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Those are all excellent reasons. Thanks for explaining.  Since the Orbi uses the same SSID for both 2.4G and 5G channels, would it be correct to assume that the ISP router is using a distinct SSID for a 2.4G to be used for Internet of Things (IoT) devices?  If both the Orbi and the ISP router  are broadcasting the same SSID, please be aware that device 'roaming' from Orbi to ISP (and back) will probably not be smooth.  Whereas the Orbi 'knows about' WiFi devices that are connnected to the Orbi units, any devices connected directly to the ISP router will appear to the Orbi to be 'wired'.  (It sees them across the ethernet cable to the ISP router, so that is a 'wire' connection. It has no idea that there is a WiFi component on the ISP router.)

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I haven't enabled the two distinct 2.4 and 5ghz SSID mode yet on the ISP router, so it was doing the same as the ORBI using one SSID for both channels. And now as I am reading your next sentence, that is what was happening to me for my IoT devices. Sometimes wifi would be on but there would be no signal and no internet connection, I am assuming that is because of ORBI and ISP Router same SSID clashing together. but for me i thought since the ORBI is AP mode it shouldn't do that.  YEAAAAA, I noticed that orbi app started to recgonize devices as wired that were connected to the ISP Router. 

[CrimpOn]

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@Kmandair04 wrote:

I just went to the orbi web interface and went to attached devices and I saw the ip adresses. All devices connected to the orbi have ip adress starting with 192.168.1.(xx)

For my current setup, I have set my ISP fibre gateway to bridge mode to stop lagging on orbi, so when i go to the ISP interface it says 0 devices connected. Do you want me to disable bridge mode and then see what is the IP adress of the devices that connect? 

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Sorry. I had a brain freeze. When the ISP is in router mode and the Orbi is in AP mode, then the ISP router creates the private network and the Orbi creates nothing.

With the way things are configured now (ISP router in bridge mode and Orbi in router mode), the ISP creates no network and the Orbi creates a private network. That is why the ISP app shows 0 devices connected.  I believe also that in bridge mode, the ISP WiFi function is probably disabled (no network = no IP's for WiFi clients).  I am amost certain that the ISP phone capabilities will remain active in bridge mode (as they remain with my Spectrum cable modem in bridge mode).

I had (incorrectly) jumped to the conclusion that the ISP was 'router' and the Orbi 'AP' because you wanted to keep the ISP router functions.

Either way, there will be only one router and one local private network.

[Kmandair04]

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Sorry. I had a brain freeze. When the ISP is in router mode and the Orbi is in AP mode, then the ISP router creates the private network and the Orbi creates nothing.

With the way things are configured now (ISP router in bridge mode and Orbi in router mode), the ISP creates no network and the Orbi creates a private network. That is why the ISP app shows 0 devices connected.  I believe also that in bridge mode, the ISP WiFi function is probably disabled (no network = no IP's for WiFi clients).  I am amost certain that the ISP phone capabilities will remain active in bridge mode (as they remain with my Spectrum cable modem in bridge mode).

I had (incorrectly) jumped to the conclusion that the ISP was 'router' and the Orbi 'AP' because you wanted to keep the ISP router functions.

Either way, there will be only one router and one local private network.

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No worries, but yeah the way I have it configured now is ISP bridge and Orbi Router mode.and you are no wrong either though, so you didn't have a brain freeze. I had the orbi in AP and ISP in router wifi on mode and i started experiening issues but then i changed it to the way i have it now ISP BRIDGE and ORBI ROUTER.  ANd yes everything else works like phone and a cable in bridge mode. Also correct that there is no wifi in bridge mode. But my issue is like you said ther can be one router and one local private network. So what I want to do is , have my ISP as the "router" with its own private local network and have ORBI not interfere with it and cause issues, but still need orbi to extend signal throughout the home. Is there any possible way to do that?

[CrimpOn]

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@Kmandair04 wrote:

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So what I want to do is , have my ISP as the "router" with its own private local network and have ORBI not interfere with it and cause issues, but still need orbi to extend signal throughout the home. Is there any possible way to do that?

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Yes. Put the ISP in router mode, but do not activate the WiFi function. (yet)

Connect the Orbi router WAN (yellow) cable to the ISP router and turn on the Orbi.

Open a browser to the Orbi web interface (http://orbilogin.net).

On the Wireless Menu, enter the WiFi SSID that you want to use.  If dozens of devices around the house have already been configured with WiFi credentials, it is sort of a "no brainer" to use those credentials.  If you are starting from nothing, then 'have at it.'

MIgrate to the Advanced Tab, Advanced Settings (bottom item), Router / AP Mode.

On the

Select AP Mode and click "Apply".

The Orbi will reboot and get an IP address from the ISP router.  It will be handy to record and remember this IP address because you may be using it several times.

Every device connected to the network will get an IP address from the ISP router, no matter how it is connected.

• To an ethernet port on the ISP router
• To an ethernet port on the Orbi router or satellite
• To the Orbi WiFi
• To the ISP WiFi

Although I (personally) have never found it necessary to set up a separate SSID for my Internet of Things (IoT) devices, many users sincerely believe that doing so is essential. (There are posts on the forum with hundreds of entries debating and fighting about this topic.)  So, as long as IoT devices are within range of the ISP router, activate the 2.4G WiFi radio on the ISP router and give it a unique name that is separate from the Orbi SSID.  I would leave the ISP 5G WiFi turned off as it adds no value and may compete with the Orbi for "air time."

[Kmandair04]

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@CrimpOn wrote:

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Yes. Put the ISP in router mode, but do not activate the WiFi function. (yet)

Connect the Orbi router WAN (yellow) cable to the ISP router and turn on the Orbi.

Open a browser to the Orbi web interface (http://orbilogin.net).

On the Wireless Menu, enter the WiFi SSID that you want to use.  If dozens of devices around the house have already been configured with WiFi credentials, it is sort of a "no brainer" to use those credentials.  If you are starting from nothing, then 'have at it.'

MIgrate to the Advanced Tab, Advanced Settings (bottom item), Router / AP Mode.

On the

Select AP Mode and click "Apply".

The Orbi will reboot and get an IP address from the ISP router.  It will be handy to record and remember this IP address because you may be using it several times.

Every device connected to the network will get an IP address from the ISP router, no matter how it is connected.

• To an ethernet port on the ISP router
• To an ethernet port on the Orbi router or satellite
• To the Orbi WiFi
• To the ISP WiFi

Although I (personally) have never found it necessary to set up a separate SSID for my Internet of Things (IoT) devices, many users sincerely believe that doing so is essential. (There are posts on the forum with hundreds of entries debating and fighting about this topic.)  So, as long as IoT devices are within range of the ISP router, activate the 2.4G WiFi radio on the ISP router and give it a unique name that is separate from the Orbi SSID.  I would leave the ISP 5G WiFi turned off as it adds no value and may compete with the Orbi for "air time."

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I am gonna have to do some research If I can turn my isp router into router mode but without the wifi. If not, is there any workaround?  I am sorry for annoying you due to my ignorance, but I think I can still keep it in bridge mode like I have right now and do the other steps and then disable bridge mode to enable the wifi at the end. Okay for the new WIFI credentials, I already have them configured from the old ones, so I do not have to re add them one by one on all devices, but am I supposed to make a new SSID for orbi and a separate one for ISP router?. If i do these steps will it solve the issue i was having while playing online games? These steps that you have listed, it seems like I've done it before though when i first got it. difference is that i had wifi on for isp router. speaking of that when do i turn wifi back on for the ISP router? or do i leave it disabled, if i leave it disabled that means my Router has to remain in bridge mode, unless i find out a way to turn wifi off and keep it in router mode.

for the seperate 2.4 and 5ghz channel Its just an option I would like to have, for future like I got tenants renting downstairs I would want to give them 2.4 seperate SSID just so I know their phone won't be bugging and connecting them to 5ghz which has less range. 

[FURRYe38]

If you can't bridge the modem, disable ALL wifi radios on the modem, configure the modems DMZ/ExposedHost or IP Pass-Through for the IP address the Orbi router gets from the modem. Then you can use the Orbi router in Router mode.

[Kmandair04]

I want to disable it for my ISP router, not the Orbi though.

[CrimpOn]

There must be at least one router.  That is why it is essential to put the ISP device into router mode first, and then change the Orbi to AP mode second.

[Kmandair04]

Okay , so I will just disable the bridge mode on my isp router and then use orbi as ap mode and then what’s the next step? I’ve done it like that before and it didn’t work efficiently

[CrimpOn]

The next step is probably to document what the symptoms are and try to resolve them.  You are in sort of a awkward spot:

• ISP bridge - Orbi router seems to perform the way you want, but does not provide features you want
• ISP router - Orbi AP provides the features, but did not satisfy your needs the first time.

May be a tough decision if it is not possible to diagnose what is causing the problems.

[Kmandair04]

Yup you got it on the dot. It is a tricky situation.

So for ISP Bridge-
Works normally except for like u said features and convenience of controlling phone, tv, and internet on isp app.
i have no satellite on first floor so when I go in kitchen area internet decreases significantly. And sometimes internet cuts out randomly , but won’t call this direct symptom of isp of this

ISP router orbi ap-
everything is functional , gaming is unplayable getting unbearable ping and booted off games due to bad wifi.
Have the features and when I go in the kitchen area wifi does not drop for some reason.

[Kmandair04]

Example of wifi jus cutting out. ( isp router bridge mode and orbi in router mode)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12XPdHNI7ayDlz7_pbNL1M1RMcYAYEzWF

[CrimpOn]

I do not understand what the video is showing.  I see messages from Safari being in Private Browsing mode, but do not see evidence of the WiFi signal disappearing.  Can you explain how to interpret the video?

[Kmandair04]

So basically I am on safari and I put in orbi in the search bar and clicked search. The wifi symbol has full bars on them but my search is still not going thru. I tapped the search bar again and clicked enter and the loading bar is only a quarter way thru and doesn’t complete the search.

[CrimpOn]

Grrrrr.  "i-things" are the spawn of the devil. (Meaning I do not have any.)

Is there another browser for iPhone (of iPad) besides Safari?

I agree this is puzzling.  When I put "Orbi" in the search bar of any of my Windows web browsers, they immediately pop up pages (and pages) of 'hits'.  Is this unique to "Orbi", or any Safari search?

[Kmandair04]

I can download other browsers besides safari but safari is my default. This also happens when I’m watching YouTube tiktok etc. just so there is no confusion , no the word orbi doesn’t have anything to do with the search, I could’ve put any word there and it wouldn’t have worked. This happens randomly and happens more often when I’m in the kitchen area

[CrimpOn]

Not standing with a huge stainless steel refrigerator in the path between device and Orbi WiFi by any chance?

[Kmandair04]

The stainless steel fridge is like further behind me not between the orbi and device.

[CrimpOn]

It is quite a mystery that the phone could "show connected" but the application not perform. Most of the complaints about WiFi disconnects involve actual "disconnects" where the device reports losing WiFi signal.

[Kmandair04]

Yea it is. Do u think I should factory reset my orbi and start up the setup process all over again? Maybe a setup issue is causing this problem?

[CrimpOn]

Cannot hurt. This situation is just weird. Does every device have this problem?