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Lost all my data on my RN104 - anything I can do?
I've got a ReadyNAS 104 that has lost all my data. After receiving an error message that stated one of my drives was having issues, the front panel locked up but I could still see my shares and files through Windows. Pulled the plug on the unit to restart, then lost my admin web page because I had deleted an app (6.2.2) recovered my web page and now it reports I have 0 Mb / no volumes. Tried reinstalling the O/S, rebooted many times. Still see my shares but can't get into my files anymore. Sad day... Anything I can do?
12 Replies
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- Doesn't look good.
You have at least two disks which are failing pretty badly.
You could try contacting support and consider purchasing an initial diagnostics data recovery contract. Please note that data recovery attempts may be unsuccessful. Backups are important. Never store important data on just the one device. Rainmaker11 wrote: I've got a ReadyNAS 104 that has lost all my data. After receiving an error message that stated one of my drives was having issues, the front panel locked up but I could still see my shares and files through Windows. Pulled the plug on the unit to restart, then lost my admin web page because I had deleted an app (6.2.2) recovered my web page and now it reports I have 0 Mb / no volumes. Tried reinstalling the O/S, rebooted many times. Still see my shares but can't get into my files anymore. Sad day... Anything I can do?
Hmm
Your ReadyNAS 104 should be able to handle one disk failure. If your are running the standard RAID settings with redundancy. This is one of the core design specifications for the ReadyNAS product line.- This systems has more than one disk that has problems.
- My 104 only complained about the one drive and it didn't shut that drive down at the time. In my mind the box (raid and all) should be much more robust than this. :( Your right that 2 drives now seem to have high error counts but they both are still working and are just warning that they are about to fail. They haven't actually failed yet! I thought that if one drive failed I could hot swap it out with a new one. I guess not. I bought the ReadyNas as an alternative to having a bunch of external usb drives plugged into my computer. In hind sight I would have not lost everything from 4 drives.
The good news is that the data on these drives is not irreplaceable. :) I am somewhat rabid about multiple backups including online storage so the stuff I desperately need I can still recover but the disappoint I have is that I no longer feel that the ReadyNas is a reliable system for me. If it can die this way it can't be considered a robust system for storage. - I don't accept your conclusions at all.
Firstly none of your disks are on the compatibility list (http://kb.netgear.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20641). You could have run into issues directly related to compatibility issues with the disks you are using. Using Green disks is not a good idea (however those are the two disks that seem to still be O.K. of the four you have installed).
I just had another look and one of your disks had a reallocated sector count that has increased to 50 ages ago (if you download your logs you can see this in smart_history.log; note I have removed the serial numbers as those should not be posted publicly)
model serial realloc_sect realloc_evnt spin_retry_cnt ioedc cmd_timeouts pending_sect uncorrectable_err ata_errors timestamp time
-------------------- -------------------- ------------ ------------ -------------- ---------- ------------ ------------ ----------------- ---------- ---------- -------------------
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 20 21 0 -1 -1 61 0 10068 1416288780 2014-11-18 05:33:00
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 20 21 0 -1 -1 61 1 10068 1416436487 2014-11-19 22:34:47
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 22 23 0 -1 -1 59 0 10068 1416533818 2014-11-21 01:36:58
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 23 24 0 -1 -1 58 0 10068 1416534610 2014-11-21 01:50:10
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 38 39 0 -1 -1 1 0 10068 1416541673 2014-11-21 03:47:53
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 39 40 0 -1 -1 0 0 10068 1416563468 2014-11-21 09:51:08
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 40 41 0 -1 -1 0 0 10068 1417841035 2014-12-06 04:43:55
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 41 42 0 -1 -1 1 0 10082 1417851940 2014-12-06 07:45:40
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 42 43 0 -1 -1 1 0 10088 1417852051 2014-12-06 07:47:31
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 43 44 0 -1 -1 1 0 10088 1417861418 2014-12-06 10:23:38
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 44 45 0 -1 -1 1 0 10088 1417865931 2014-12-06 11:38:51
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 45 46 0 -1 -1 0 0 10088 1417898568 2014-12-06 20:42:48
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 48 49 0 -1 -1 0 0 10097 1418378058 2014-12-12 09:54:18
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 49 50 0 -1 -1 0 0 10097 1420185601 2015-01-02 08:00:01
Hitachi HDS721010CLA XXXXXXXXXXXXXX 49 50 0 -1 -1 1 1 10097 1420719858 2015-01-08 12:24:18
If the reallocated sector count increases regularly, rapidly or reaches 50 we'd recommend replacing a disk. A non-zero current pending sector count would suggest a disk should be replaced. Though the count has not increased recently this disk is not in good shape and it is one of the two disks that dropped out of your data volume array.
The disk you have been getting errors about recently should have been replaced last year. The current pending sector count was non-zero when you first installed it.
model serial realloc_sect realloc_evnt spin_retry_cnt ioedc cmd_timeouts pending_sect uncorrectable_err ata_errors timestamp time
-------------------- -------------------- ------------ ------------ -------------- ---------- ------------ ------------ ----------------- ---------- ---------- -------------------
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 13 13 0 0 2 48 48 813 1417827684 2014-12-06 01:01:24
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 13 13 0 0 2 50 50 813 1418287642 2014-12-11 08:47:22
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 13 13 0 0 3 15 15 831 1418337029 2014-12-11 22:30:29
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 13 13 0 0 3 1 1 837 1418472503 2014-12-13 12:08:23
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 14 14 0 0 3 1 1 837 1422340075 2015-01-27 06:27:55
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 16 16 0 0 3 1 1 837 1422343767 2015-01-27 07:29:27
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 157 157 0 0 3 1 1 837 1422392269 2015-01-27 20:57:49
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 369 369 0 0 3 1 1 837 1422392395 2015-01-27 20:59:55
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 429 429 0 0 3 10 10 837 1422392521 2015-01-27 21:02:01
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 429 429 0 0 3 29 29 837 1422392647 2015-01-27 21:04:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 429 429 0 0 3 42 42 837 1422392773 2015-01-27 21:06:13
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 430 430 0 0 3 32 32 0 1422544882 2015-01-29 15:21:22
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 13 13 924 1422545080 2015-01-29 15:24:40
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 24 24 924 1422545192 2015-01-29 15:26:32
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 36 36 924 1422545319 2015-01-29 15:28:39
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 47 47 924 1422545446 2015-01-29 15:30:46
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 57 57 924 1422545573 2015-01-29 15:32:53
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 73 73 924 1422545700 2015-01-29 15:35:00
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 89 89 924 1422545827 2015-01-29 15:37:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 106 106 924 1422545954 2015-01-29 15:39:14
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 118 118 924 1422546081 2015-01-29 15:41:21
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 150 150 924 1422546230 2015-01-29 15:43:50
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 168 168 924 1422546358 2015-01-29 15:45:58
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 199 199 924 1422546485 2015-01-29 15:48:05
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 227 227 924 1422546614 2015-01-29 15:50:14
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 5 227 227 941 1423416507 2015-02-08 17:28:27
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 126 126 967 1423416623 2015-02-08 17:30:23
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 127 127 967 1423416869 2015-02-08 17:34:29
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 131 131 967 1423416997 2015-02-08 17:36:37
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 134 134 967 1423417125 2015-02-08 17:38:45
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 137 137 967 1423417379 2015-02-08 17:42:59
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 139 139 967 1423417507 2015-02-08 17:45:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 146 146 967 1423417635 2015-02-08 17:47:15
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 152 152 967 1423417763 2015-02-08 17:49:23
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 153 153 967 1423417891 2015-02-08 17:51:31
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 6 154 154 973 1423576289 2015-02-10 13:51:29
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 431 431 0 0 8 157 157 1017 1423883493 2015-02-14 03:11:33
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 433 433 0 0 9 153 153 1038 1424151562 2015-02-17 05:39:22
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 433 433 0 0 9 159 159 1070 1424294994 2015-02-18 21:29:54
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 434 434 0 0 9 159 159 1134 1424295250 2015-02-18 21:34:10
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 434 434 0 0 11 153 153 1155 1425927803 2015-03-09 19:03:23
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 434 434 0 0 11 164 164 1155 1425927911 2015-03-09 19:05:11
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 434 434 0 0 11 183 183 1155 1425928034 2015-03-09 19:07:14
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 434 434 0 0 12 183 183 1173 1425931197 2015-03-09 19:59:57
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 436 436 0 0 15 184 184 1223 1425931432 2015-03-09 20:03:52
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 437 437 0 0 17 183 183 1267 1426290034 2015-03-13 23:40:34
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 437 437 0 0 19 183 183 1316 1426392618 2015-03-15 04:10:18
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 437 437 0 0 22 187 187 1375 1426945757 2015-03-21 13:49:17
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 438 438 0 0 22 184 184 1375 1426945878 2015-03-21 13:51:18
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 438 438 0 0 22 188 188 1375 1426948038 2015-03-21 14:27:18
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 438 438 0 0 22 210 210 1375 1426948166 2015-03-21 14:29:26
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 439 439 0 0 22 210 210 1375 1431197302 2015-05-09 18:48:22
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 440 440 0 0 23 210 210 1388 1431489596 2015-05-13 03:59:56
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 445 445 0 0 23 210 210 1388 1431515221 2015-05-13 11:07:01
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 494 494 0 0 23 210 210 1388 1431515338 2015-05-13 11:08:58
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 495 495 0 0 24 211 211 1399 1431670389 2015-05-15 06:13:09
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 496 496 0 0 27 211 211 1435 1431670566 2015-05-15 06:16:06
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 497 497 0 0 35 212 212 1505 1431670809 2015-05-15 06:20:09
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 497 497 0 0 38 213 213 1546 1431670981 2015-05-15 06:23:01
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 498 498 0 0 40 214 214 1602 1431671202 2015-05-15 06:26:42
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 211 211 1614 1431671315 2015-05-15 06:28:35
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 212 212 1614 1431673346 2015-05-15 07:02:26
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 213 213 1614 1431674527 2015-05-15 07:22:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 214 214 1614 1431675887 2015-05-15 07:44:47
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 215 215 1614 1431676016 2015-05-15 07:46:56
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 216 216 1614 1431676145 2015-05-15 07:49:05
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 217 217 1614 1431676274 2015-05-15 07:51:14
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 218 218 1614 1431676403 2015-05-15 07:53:23
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 219 219 1614 1431676654 2015-05-15 07:57:34
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 220 220 1614 1431677949 2015-05-15 08:19:09
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 222 222 1614 1431678058 2015-05-15 08:20:58
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 223 223 1614 1431679073 2015-05-15 08:37:53
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 225 225 1614 1431679836 2015-05-15 08:50:36
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 227 227 1614 1431680219 2015-05-15 08:56:59
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 228 228 1614 1431686014 2015-05-15 10:33:34
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 229 229 1614 1431686659 2015-05-15 10:44:19
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 499 499 0 0 41 229 229 1620 1431694308 2015-05-15 12:51:48
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 500 500 0 0 41 229 229 1620 1431696972 2015-05-15 13:36:12
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 500 500 0 0 41 229 229 1626 1431697099 2015-05-15 13:38:19
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 501 501 0 0 41 229 229 1632 1431699520 2015-05-15 14:18:40
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 502 502 0 0 41 229 229 1632 1431700796 2015-05-15 14:39:56
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 502 502 0 0 41 229 229 1633 1431702822 2015-05-15 15:13:42
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 505 505 0 0 41 270 270 1633 1431789011 2015-05-16 15:10:11
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 309 309 1633 1431789840 2015-05-16 15:24:00
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 329 329 1633 1431793120 2015-05-16 16:18:40
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 390 390 1633 1431793327 2015-05-16 16:22:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 401 401 1633 1431795796 2015-05-16 17:03:16
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 419 419 1633 1431804564 2015-05-16 19:29:24
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 442 442 1633 1431805140 2015-05-16 19:39:00
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 501 501 1633 1431812159 2015-05-16 21:35:59
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 515 515 1633 1431812332 2015-05-16 21:38:52
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 533 533 1633 1431814729 2015-05-16 22:18:49
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 538 538 1633 1431814857 2015-05-16 22:20:57
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 545 545 1633 1431815365 2015-05-16 22:29:25
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 580 580 1633 1431930265 2015-05-18 06:24:25
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 585 585 1633 1431930444 2015-05-18 06:27:24
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 595 595 1633 1431963588 2015-05-18 15:39:48
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 629 629 1633 1431970078 2015-05-18 17:27:58
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 632 632 1633 1431970199 2015-05-18 17:29:59
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 643 643 1633 1432217800 2015-05-21 14:16:40
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 649 649 1633 1432217912 2015-05-21 14:18:32
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 672 672 1633 1432218286 2015-05-21 14:24:46
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 706 706 1633 1432218407 2015-05-21 14:26:47
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 737 737 1633 1432218529 2015-05-21 14:28:49
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 768 768 1633 1432218650 2015-05-21 14:30:50
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 799 799 1633 1432218771 2015-05-21 14:32:51
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 824 824 1633 1432218893 2015-05-21 14:34:53
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 853 853 1633 1432219016 2015-05-21 14:36:56
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 879 879 1633 1432219139 2015-05-21 14:38:59
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 903 903 1633 1432219260 2015-05-21 14:41:00
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 937 937 1633 1432219387 2015-05-21 14:43:07
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 978 978 1633 1432219514 2015-05-21 14:45:14
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 1008 1008 1633 1432219642 2015-05-21 14:47:22
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 1042 1042 1633 1432219768 2015-05-21 14:49:28
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 1075 1075 1633 1432219895 2015-05-21 14:51:35
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 1109 1109 1633 1432220023 2015-05-21 14:53:43
ST31000528AS XXXXXXXX 577 577 0 0 41 1119 1119 1633 1432220150 2015-05-21 14:55:50
If you leave disks that are clearly failing badly in the system for months after you're aware of that you are asking for trouble. Whilst they may not be completely unresponsive these disks clearly needed replacing. Now it is too late for that. It's data recovery (which may be unsuccessful) or restore from backup.
It looks like at least one of your disks (the SeaGate disk) was used when you added it to the NAS. It is better to use brand new disks rather than reuse old disks.
With external USB drives if the external USB drive fails you lose all the data on it. So you would need to keep another copy of the data if you used those too.
No important data should be stored on just the one device.
If you are at all in doubt as to whether a disk should be replaced, how urgent it is to replace etc. it is better to ask. The community is here to help. We like to help as best we can to try to avoid disk problems leading to bigger issues but once they have led to big issues there's not much the community can do to help. - Thanks for your comments mdgm. But I still have some issues here.
First off it's true that the drives are not on the compatibility list so I accept that. I stand by my comment about external usb drives. I would have only lost the data on the drive that failed, instead now I have one drive that failed and lost ALL the data on ALL drives. :(
Only the Hitachi was an older drive that didn't give me any issues previously. The other 3 drives were new.
So here's my complaint about the 'system'. First off I didn't notice any issues with the drives because I only occasionally looked at the logs. The disk issues that you showed from my log all were listed with green dots (meaning ok??) and were not warnings or errors but showed as info so a casual glance at the logs wouldn't have alerted me to a problem.
The 'overview' page showed my status as 'healthy' even after I knew that I had 'one' drive failing. I had downloaded a copy of RAIDar and it showed 4 healthy drives with green check marks and a status of healthy as well.
I did not know that I had failing disks from months ago and I didn't see any warnings until the Seagate drive showed up as a warning on my admin page just last week. I didn't know the Hitachi was failing either until you posted my logs.
In future I'll know that the ReadyNas does not throw warning messages when drives start reporting errors but that I need to purposely scan the logs for this. - Rainmaker11 has a point here... I can appreciate that he didn't use verified drives, and that he shouldn't have used an old drive initially, but the system has never told him that he was accumulating problems... That is an issue.
If/when a drive starts failing, perhaps with ATA errors, there should be a warning in FrontView, and perhaps an email. A trigger could be when more than 10 errors in one day are registered, or something like that. You can't just say "you should have noticed that in the logs" - most people wouldn't know what to look for, or where...
I have 6 drives in my Pioneer Pro, and two of these have a few ATA errors. Not an awful lot, and probably nothing to worry about, yet NetGear supporters were very quick to blame "failing" discs on a performance problem I had earlier. I upgraded FW a few weeks later, and wupti, my performance problems disappeared. So in actual fact the "failing" discs had nothing to do with it, and probably something was just fixed in the FW. I still have a few ATA errors on my discs, but everything is working fine, and the amount of errors has been the same for 5 months now:=) - Rainmaker11, are your email alerts set up correctly? Do you receive emails about other events on the nas?
I have several generations of readynas devices, and in the rare cases when I've had disks fail, I have received email alerts when disk errors start appearing and/or increasing. - it's not the readynas not giving you warnings. A disk can fail with no warning. A disk could live years with 50 bad sectors and another could die the day after it reported 1 bad sector. Netgear cannot mark a disk as 'bad' with just a bunch of bad sectors or half of the disks on the field should be replaced.
The bottom line is: RAID is not infallible. You cannot trust it 100%. - It is TWO disks failing not one. We would have sent email alerts about this if they were enabled at the time.
Also the status log shown in the web admin interface clearly shows warnings about both disks from last year (even though you wouldn't see the very old entries there now you would have seen them back then). Here are just a few examples of the many warnings given:
[14/12/12 02:54:18 MST] notice:disk:LOGMSG_SMART_ATA_ERR_30DAYS_WARN Detected increasing ATA error count: [10097] on disk 3 (Internal) [Hitachi HDS721010CLA332, ] 4 times in the past 30 days. This condition often indicates an impending failure. Please be prepared to replace this disk to maintain data redundancy.
[14/12/13 05:08:23 MST] notice:disk:LOGMSG_SMART_ATA_ERR_30DAYS_WARN Detected increasing ATA error count: [837] on disk 2 (Internal) [ST31000528AS, ] 3 times in the past 30 days. This condition often indicates an impending failure. Please be prepared to replace this disk to maintain data redundancy.
These entries correspond to what is shown in the smart history table (this table has always been there in OS6 but the smart_history.log that presents it nicely in the logs you can download was added in 6.2, I think). You would have seen an alert about these messages when opening the web admin interface if it was opened around that time.
Those ATA error counts are huge. A count above 50 would suggest replacement is needed. Some would replace with a non-zero count.
The disk showing green just indicates it hasn't failed completely.
Again if at all in doubt about messages like the examples I gave above it is better to ask.
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