M1 antenna setup

[Sixtsixmike]

Hello all,
Just ordered 2 Wilson 10dbi yagi's and cables and patch cords, etc.
My question is how do you have yours mounted?
Stacked, side by side, or + 45 -45
In in a rural area in east T.N. and only get 1 sometimes 2 bars @ 2-4 gb if I stand in the right spot.
Trying to limit my trips up on the roof if I can get the rig setup before and and just put some lag bolts in my pocket and a wrench and 1 and done this joker the first time! Thanks

*Sorry for the cross post in the Wi-Fi forum

[nhantenna]

"Stacked, side by side, or + 45 -45"

I've been looking for the answer since last year.  I am rural as well and have a single yagi.  The answer will ultimately depend on how the Nighthawk works internally and how your local AT&T cell tower is configured.

MIMO vs CA.  MIMO helps in city environments where radio is bouncing off of everything (buildings, buses, etc.)  In a rural setting we do not have these city multipath problems.  That said *if* the Nighthawk supports MIMO with a second external antenna, that second antenna may do nothing for you.  I would recommend you start with one external antenna to see what you get before adding a second antenna.

CA is another thing all together.  The ability for multiple radios to work independent of one another.  *If* the Nighthawk supports CA with two external antennas the second antenna may do alot for your performance.

Netgear does not disclose any information about how the Nighthawk MIMO or CA works.  From previous forum posts this MIMO and CA information is not exposed in Nighthawk web console so even if something is happening under the covers we will not know about it.  The only thing we'll know for certain is speedtest results!  My yagi is mounted with the elements vertical.  I have never tried it in any other orientation.  I get 50Mbit download peak speeds.

My best advice for you:

1) Get one antenna working the best you can to baseline performance.

2) After adding a second antenna, try both vertical and +/- 45 setups to see what works.  I've read about +/- 45 but have NEVER seen actual speedtest results in the United States on AT&T using the +/- 45 setup.

3) Keep the antennas at least an antenna width apart.  If your yagi is six inches wide,  mount the two yagis at least six inches apart.  Stacked or side by side should not matter at all.

[JasonN]

Hi Sixtsixmike,

Thanks for the question! Please try nhantenna's steps for antenna setup.

Please let us know if those steps work for you. :]

Also thank you nhantenna for the help. :]

- Jason N

[Sixtsixmike]

Most def, will post an update as soon as I get the gear.
Good thing with the nighthawk is I can take everything up with me and dial it in on the roof. (It's just steep as heck) may be sketchy until I get to the peek....lol

[JasonN]

Great! but always make sure you are safe please. :]

Please let us know. Thanks again!

- Jason N

[Sixtsixmike]

Update:

Standing on the front porch with my test rig in my hand

[Sixtsixmike]

24 down , 8 up just holding it, my roof peek is another 30 ft up, but I'm going to wait until my siding gets put on before I mount the antennas.

[nhantenna]

"24 down , 8 up just holding it"

Does the second antenna make any performance difference at your location?  Faster pings/downloads/uploads?

[Sixtsixmike]

Pretty sure it's helping, I didn't get to in depth with my testing as I was alone and holding the antennas, nighthawk, and my cellphone at the same time. I did go up on the roof but didn't bring any gear with me just to test the steapness, one slip and you're going for a one way trip to the dirt.
I need some longer bolts for the brackets and probably a thicker pole, the antennas touch at the bottom with the rig I've got now, so I have them stacked at opposing 45's ...but I was happy to see 4 bars and the speed I got , so I put it away and started building my fireplace. I should have some help tomorrow will try a solo antenna and see what's, what.

[JasonN]

Hi Sixtsixmike,

Thanks for updating us on this! Also, I'm glad that you are seeing improvements. :]

We will wait for your update!

- Jason N

[nhantenna]

"will try a solo antenna and see what's, what."

If your rural LTE is anything like my rural LTE you're going to see sizeable speedtest fluctuations from test to test.  My recommendations:

1) Log results from ten speedtests with one antenna.

2) Log results from ten speedtests with two antennas.

3) Log results from ten speedtests with one antenna.

If there is a performance story to be told about adding a second antenna to your Nighthawk LTE hotspot at your specific location, it should be apparent from the above speedtest results.

[nhantenna]

Anyone else have speedtest results with one and two external antennas connected to your Nighthawk LTE hotspot?

 1) Log results from ten speedtests with one antenna.

2) Log results from ten speedtests with two antennas.

3) Log results from ten speedtests with one antenna.

[JasonN]

Hi nhantenna,

Thank you for your feedback on this. 

We are still waiting on Six's results. :]

- Jason N

[jpr78]

Also need information on antenna orientation in single and dual antenna configurations.

[JasonN]

Hi jpr78,

We are waiting for six's update and see if their setup works. From there we can update you with the single and dual antenna configurations.

Please be patient. :]

- Jason N

[nhantenna]

just to help set expectations on six's results.  results for single vs dual external antennas are scarce (performance, orientation comparisons ,etc).  i have been looking since last year and haven't found anything useful yet.  the bottomline line is:

1) it depends on your carrier

2) it depends on the cell tower you are connected to

there is nothing univeral here.  what works in one US state may not work in another.  what works in one US town may not work in another.  what works on AT&T may not work on another carrier.  so to answer the questions "should i get one or two antennas?" and "should both be vertical or +/- 45 degrees" i don't see us getting enough data to make these decisions any time soon.

the antennas/cabling/roof mount install is a big expense.  i have one yagi, mounted vertical, and it works well.  since adding a second antenna might do NOTHING for my performance or stability in my rural location i have not pursued getting a second antenna.

[jpr78]

I think you may be able to determine whether multiple antenna's will work by doing this. Take your nighthawk close to the tower. Connect the nighthawk to a pc via the USB C cable. Telnet to the router IP on port 5510. Type ""AT!GSTATUS?" without the quotes. This will show you all the bands the router is currently connected to. If you see more than one, I think multiple antennas could be beneficial. The two ports could each connect to the different bands increasing overall speeds. I've corresponded with someone who is actually using a wide band yagi on one antenna port and a parabolic grid on the other with very good results. In that case, you have to know for sure which bands the tower has in order to use the grid because it's a specific band unlike the wide band yagi. I actually just started testing my setup two nights ago. I have dual yagi's @ +/- 45 degrees currently in "<" formation in my attic. I'm picking up band4 and band12. band12 is 700mhz and band4 is 1700/2100mhz. Initial results are promising, without the antennas, the signal is not usable. I plan on testing ">" "V" "<" and vertical for both antennas to see which yields the best results. Also, cabling is important. Currently I'm using 25' LMR400. 

[Sixtsixmike]

Sorry guys, I'm building my house at the moment, and have a million things going at once, siding got delivered today so I should be able to mount the antennas next week sometime. (Waiting on trim work to get done before mounting the under eve mount). ...stay tuned!

[nhantenna]

@jpr78"Telnet to the router IP on port 5510. Type ""AT!GSTATUS?" without the quotes. This will show you all the bands the router is currently connected to"  Does this command show the same thing the Nighthawk web console shows or something different?  If different can you attach a screenshot?

"I'm picking up band4 and band12. band12 is 700mhz and band4 is 1700/2100mhz."  I am in the same boat as you.  I have one "700MHz only" yagi mounted vertically.  My Nighthawk ping pongs between two different cell towers.  First tower is band 12.  Second tower is band 4.  Is this back and forth between band 4 and band 12 happening to you?  My band 12 has excellent signal with 5 bars.  My band 4 has poor signal with 1 bar.

"Initial results are promising, without the antennas, the signal is not usable."  Same as me.  Without my one external yagi the Nighthawk is so unreliable that it can not be used as internet solution.  My peak download speed is approx 50Mbit with one external 700MHz yagi antenna.  Let's assume that my 50Mbit is coming over 700MHz band with my 700MHz antenna.  If I add a second antenna, would a second radio in my Nighthawk get another 50Mbit, giving me a total of 100Mbit download?  Nighthawk is my only CA device.  I have no idea how AT&T handles/implements/restricts CA.  But I do know that in order for this Nighthawk to reach the advertised 1000Mbit (1Gbit) max speed the Nighthawk must use multiple radios/bands aggressively.

[jpr78]

" Does this command show the same thing the Nighthawk web console shows or something different?  If different can you attach a screenshot?"

It shows additional info. The web console will only show me one band which I assume is what the router designates as the primary band. So the console showed me band12 but the telnet command showed both band12 and band4. I cannot attach a screenshot at the moment. I had to give my friend back the router. He has a grandfathered unlimited account and he's going to add a line for me and get me a nighthawk. I'm hoping I'll have it between 4/16 and 4/20.  Here's a thread from the forums where someone posts the output of the command. https://community.netgear.com/t5/Mobile-Routers-Hotspots-Modems/Nighthawk-m1-4g-only/m-p/1499583

"I am in the same boat as you.  I have one "700MHz only" yagi mounted vertically.  My Nighthawk ping pongs between two different cell towers.  First tower is band 12.  Second tower is band 4.  Is this back and forth between band 4 and band 12 happening to you?  My band 12 has excellent signal with 5 bars.  My band 4 has poor signal with 1 bar."
Yes, it happened to me too. Band12 was good (-87) and Band4 was marginal(-108). I went to bed on band12 and when I woke up, it had jumped over to band4. Surprisingly, with the marginal signal band4 is still fast if not faster than band12(in regards to download it's just as good, upload seems to be capped around 2meg on band4, I can get 4-6meg on band12). I read somewhere people talking about a tower having a band priority(speculation?). So a particular tower could force device to a specific band even if it's not the best signal for you. I'll have more info on band hopping once I get my router and start testing more.

"Let's assume that my 50Mbit is coming over 700MHz band with my 700MHz antenna.  If I add a second antenna, would a second radio in my Nighthawk get another 50Mbit, giving me a total of 100Mbit download?"

I don't believe so. I think each antenna will one hook to one band and that's why the nighthawk has 4 antennas but only 2 being accessible for antennas. I saw a pic of someone who had taken the nighthawk completely out of the case and in order to try to access all four antennas. And I swear there is a pic on this forum of another person showing a pic with all four antennas connected.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ATT/comments/7cs5ri/m1_nighthawk_external_antennas_from_pcb_what_size/

[AoC]

I suggest to use two antennas, since MIMO works best with two equal antennas. This page explains basics of MIMO.

https://www.unwiredinsight.com/2013/lte-mimo

It's vital to have two antennas to utilise MIMO features, like transmission diversity or spatial multiplexing, to archieve best service.

Of course if the BTS has only 1x1 setup, benefits from two antennas ain't so high, as far as I know.

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[nhantenna]

"I suggest to use two antennas, since MIMO works best with two equal antennas."

MIMO is for environments where signal is bouncing around.  Like downtown city with lots of buildings.

MIMO does not help for more rural areas with little or no signal bouncing around.

Nobody knows whether Nighthawk LTE hotspot external attennas support MIMO or CA.  I have yet to see any speedtest results or web console screenshots showing signal improvements when a second external attenna is added.  Like I said before, I think the number of nighthawk owners using two antennas is very, very low.  Since it depends on physical location, carrier, cell tower configuration, we're not going to be able to make any general recommendations anytime soon.

For Nighthawk owners wondering about one external antenna, yes, one external antenna can make a massive difference.  You can jump from no service to 50Mbit download.  As for adding a second antenna, that is uncertain.  It's been six months or so since the AT&T Nighthawk came out in the United States.  I have yet to see any data that says a second antenna makes any difference at all on AT&T.

[AoC]

MIMO is for environments where signal is bouncing around. Like downtown city with lots of buildings.

MIMO does not help for more rural areas with little or no signal bouncing around.
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I don't fully agree with this. Mimo is a key feature in LTE and it works anywhere, even on rural areas, at least on my area. Depending on active LTE transmission mode it's utilised in different ways. To archieve high data speeds, TM3 or TM4 are needed since those are using spatial multiplexing. I don't know if LTE in US is so much different than on Europe, but basically disabling one datastream reduces the data speed by half. 20MHz BW with 64QAM = 2*75=150Mbps. If the BTS supports 2x2 MIMO, there is no any practical idea to reduce the performace by using only one antenna at the UE side. Also, on poor signal areas, MIMO improves the signal quality when TM2 (transmission diversity) is being used. The same datastream is sent via two different radio paths and with some algoritms, overall performance is improved over 1x1 situation.

4x4 MIMO is a bit different story. To get four concurrent datastreams to work, you need to trigger at least Rank 3. It'snot triggered If you stand in the eNB main beam. 4x4 needs more signal propagation than 2x2.

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I'm planning to some tests with my MR-1100 EUS but the issue is to find high quality ts9-sma pigtails.

Edit:. And it really doesn't matter on how much propagation is around, since eNB antennas are cross-polarised in a shape of letter X , those signal are anyways using different paths.

[jpr78]

Here's the thread I was talking about where someone removed the nighthawk from the case. I see it was just commented on and bumped it to the top of the forum.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Mobile-Routers-Hotspots-Modems/LTE-4x4-MIMO-outdoor-antenna/td-p/15...

[nhantenna]

"It's been seven months or so since the AT&T Nighthawk came out in the United States.  I have yet to see any data that says a second antenna makes any difference at all on AT&T."

Still looking for any AT&T speedtest results with one vs two external Nighthawk LTE hotspot antennas.