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Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

IrvSp
Master

NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@ChristineT, it seems Netgear is looking for Alpha/Beta testers for the latest R7000 V1.0.9.64 firmware. At least 2 moderators are in most if not all the threads with problems on that specific router asking people to try it. Many of those threads do NOT appear to have the problem listed as fixed in the README.

 

Matter of fact, the most serious one of the wireless signal dropping was not even in the fix list? Still it was suggested it be tried.

 

Then Darren today posted this new thread, https://community.netgear.com/t5/Nighthawk-WiFi-Routers/R7000-Firmware-1-0-9-64/m-p/1700570#M118024). It was even LOCKED so there could be no questions or replies!

 

Why?

 

The WHOLE contents (in case you didn't know it or approved it):

 

==============

We’ve recently improved the device list accuracy on the R7000 with the latest fw version 1.0.9.64. Check it out and let us know what you think! For everyone else, stay tuned as we work on getting this improvement on more models.

==============

 

Since when is a problem that IS a bug, DEVICE LIST problems on many routers, considered an 'improvement' and NOT a fix?

 

Since you appear to be working on other routers, like my R8000 that has the same shortcoming (BUG), when can 'we' expect a fix?

 

Why is there NOT a list of KNOWN working problems published on each router? It sure would make it easier to know possible FIXES coming if nothing else.

 

We are your customer's and deserve better than to be kept in the blind and used as Alpha/Beta testers without asking or invited to be!

Message 1 of 13
jgscorpio
Guide

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@IrvSp @NETGEAR is a junk company and their products and customer service suck.  Due to my experience with them, I will no longer recommend them to anyone, for anything.  Until they fix their FW updates to actually solve problems, not create them.

 

It is too bad, because I used to love NETGEAR.

Message 2 of 13
IrvSp
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@jgscorpio, no, the h/w is still good. It is the FIRMWARE that is the basic problem. It seems to get 'mangled' by the support team in China. Hardware is still good.

 

I took Netgear to task over my R8000 and the need to use SMB 1 to use the USB drive in Windows. This is a security risk (not as bad now as it was when the WannaCry virus was discovered) declared by everyone and MS even took action to disable SMB 1 in Windows 10. SMB 3 should be used instead. Netgear DID enable SMB 3 in the router, but that wasn't enough. Other protocols must also be enabled. They didn't do that. For almost a year, support kept trying to close my case. Basically either telling me I had to use SMB 1 or that it was a Windows problem, not Netgears. I kept going back with proof that SMB 3 was indeed enabled but not usable without enabling WSD.  Eventually I was told WSD protocol was NOT part of the R8000 spec. They would NOT add it. Contacted moderators here. Nothing was done. What was done was I was offered a REFUND for my R8000!

 

I was going to take it too, giving up in disgust. So I looked into other Tri-band routers. LinkSys, ASUS, D-Link, and even Synology's dual-band. Everyone of them it seems had the SAME SMB 1 problem. ASUS even stated you MUST use SMB 1 to use USB drive shares. Looking at forums for those vendors and they mirror this forum. Same problems. Broken firmware, wireless dropping, slow speeds, etc. ASUS I recall didn't even have a vendor forum. In those I looked at participation by the vendor was not any better on vendor forums. Reviews on Amazon and other sellers of those routers were not always good.  

 

My conclusion, any Residential router suffers the same problems. Poor support, questionable value warranties (got to read them to determine the value, and yes, some have longer ones), poor performance, etc.

 

Maybe someday Netgear will fix the support issue, but until then, problems will continue.

 

I have owned and used ASUS and LinkSys routers in the past, and be far, for me, Netgear HAD been the best. My R7000 was trouble free for over 4 years. Either it 'died' or a firmware flash caused it to fail. Replaced it with the R8000 and had no problems, at least minor ones easily worked around, until MS dropped SMB 1.

Message 3 of 13
alien433
Guide

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

I  left Netgear because the bug is bigger with every firmware. Now i Use the synology rt2600Ac en MR2200AC and its working. I'm Happy. I dont ever buy Netgear Stuff again. Because Netgear is only bulding hardware and not software believe me.

owner of:

Netgear R7000

Draytek 2130N

Synology Nas
Message 4 of 13
jgscorpio
Guide

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

Is anyone updating their firmware? I am afraid to do it because last time it ruined my router!!!

Message 5 of 13
myersw
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@IrvSp 

I think you understand why I and others have gone to the next layer up for router and wifi support. The consumer grade routers seem to all, in various forms, have the same basic issues of dropped connections, etc.  

 

Netgear used to be my vendor of choice for routers and wifi support. No more after experiencing firmware issues with a r8000 and r8000p that are still not fixed in the latest firmware. We are talking about over a year with the same issues. The firmware engineers, 3rd party as I understand it, do not have a clue and do not seemingly even test the released firmware before release as the idenified issues are still in the latest. In some cases they have taken a really good router, the r7000, and with the latest updates turned it into the same junk status as the newer routers. Used a r7000 when they first came out and it worked. From the forums that is not the case if you update to the latest build. 

 

I no longer use Netgear Network products for my network, see sig for current network. Do have a Netgear modem that just works as well as Arlo cameras. Arlo cameras provide their own wifi network via the base station, by the way, not on the wifi network. I decided the way to get around all these issues was to go more toward commercial grade routers and AP's. I worked for a large company in their network group supporting Cisco equipment so one reason to look else where. My Ubiquiti Unifi network just works. No disconnects, no slowdowns, no reboots to get things working again, no reconfigure after firmware update no reboot after firmware update. Commercial customers would not put up with the issues that the consumer grade products have. Be it Ubiquiti or some other vendor, IMHO if you want a network that works, forget the consumer grade routers. My current network just works and really did not cost must more then high end Netgear router, about $450! In the case of Ubiquiti Unifi products they provide the network where my son works and the network is always available and just works. He is a techie so would notice things not working. 

 

Above are just my thoughts, and at the same time hoping Netgear will get their act together, as they build good hardware, it is the firmware that is the issue. Would like to be able to again recommend them to friends. Currently would not even recommend to enemies. 

 

--Bill
ISP Comcast, Modem-Netgear CM1150V, Router-Unifi Security Gateway-Pro4, AP-2 Unifi AP-LR
Tesla > Edison
Message 6 of 13
IrvSp
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@myersw, say what you want, but there will ALWAYS be a difference between Residential and Commercial h/w. More so because of who owns it and how many units they have vs. the h/w itself.

 

You seem to think Ubiquiti is perfect or at least put that notion forward? They are NOT. Some are true issues, and many are probably 'user error' or really 'user inexperience'.

 

Extra cost buys you probably the same designed chipsets as anyone else. It is the custom f/w and MANAGEMENT of same, including support capability and length of warranty that differs.

 

I know that big corporations have in the past and farmed out support to far east companies. However, in some cases, like Dell, for certain h/w they brought that back to the US. The support just wasn't matching the expectations of the customers on the higher end products and commercial customers as well. Difference again was $'s they could lose.

 

NG residential products do not have that exposure... it seems no one is better, at least from my viewpoint.

 

Now I live in a 55+ community. Most people are not h/w or network wizards. Most can't even handle Windows. They know which icons to press and what buttons to push mostly. To many a computer is a commodity, and the cheaper the better. Same goes for 'parts', and I mean s/w and h/w. I can't tell you how many I've helped. Most common complaint, PC is slow, doesn't work, doesn't do what I want. Why? They click willy nilly and get all sorts of crap on the PC. After a while, that cheap slow CPU, with low memory can't do anything. A lot of times it is an infection of sorts as well. Almost everyone has NO protection. PC came with x months of security and once up it is never renewed. Now they need a router and what do they 'buy', something like this, https://www.securifi.com/almond. It works, it is $90, it has 2 LAN ports (most only need two) and supports N speed wireless. Heck, most of them have 1 or 2 PC's, a phone or two, a wireless printer (or wired to the sole PC), and NOT much else. Biggest need is wireless when company is over... and that fits the bill.

 

You still say it 'just works'? Well it doesn't seem that way in the forums, https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Routing-Switching/bd-p/USG, does it?

 

Routers are not the easiest to test. There is no 'standard' use. I've got an R8000 and it works fine for me. You had to sell yours. Yes, it has some problems, but I can work around them. Most people can.

 

My needs are simple. A couple of phone's, iPad's, Smart TV's, FireTV, a few IoT's, printer, and a few PC's. Guest access for grandkids and other friends. A single USB 2TB drive on the router shared to PC's, iPad's, and SmartTV. it all works, and yes, with some features not working but I don't need them.

 

Is my skill set higher than some, probably yes, but still, it just works. Depends on your definition of works I guess? My R7000 started to have problems and I replaced it with the R8000. The R7000 worked but every few days it would drop the Internet from the modem. It was at the time on the V1.0.9.42 release which most consider stable. 5 years old, could be the router, so I replaced it.

 

My complaining for a year about SMB 1 finally I guess got support fed up and they were willing to REFUND my purchase price for the R8000 so I'd go away. Tried to do that, but I'll not jump ship unless I knew it was better. Reviewed several Residential vendors and specifically models with Tri-band AND the EULA and WARRANY documentation, as well as forums where I could find any. Conclusion, none were guaranteed to be better, and WORSE, 2 were quite clear on SMB 1 usage. The statements were ENABLE it. Not what I wanted.

 

Oh, Warranties, fun stuff. Some like ASUS seems to have a boilerplate for many different products. Some have varying terms, and some like ASUS have NO presence in ANY forum. Worse, they all seem to indicate SOFTWARE is not covered... so if they 'brick it' they have some sort of leverage to say it is your problem. NG is very SLOW to RMA bricked routers as a rule for anyone who installed new f/w and the router was bricked.  Yeah, we know, it can happen, even with good f/w, but they can walk away with statements like that.

 

I do not need 200 clients connected. I just need what I bought to work... and for me, it does. Sorry it didn't for you.

Message 7 of 13
antinode
Guru

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

> Is anyone updating their firmware? I am afraid to do it because last
> time it ruined my router!!!

 

   What did you do to un-"ruin"/"destroy" your router?  My quick skim
through your old posts showed only much whining, and no mention of, for
example, TFTP.  Did I miss anything significant?

Message 8 of 13
jgscorpio
Guide

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

I did all that! I ended up rolling back my firmware version to a previous one and had zero issues.

Now, the WiFi is broadcasting but internet connection and data aren’t streaming through it. It’s so annoying. I was hoping I had fixed it and now I’m having issues again.

I don’t want to buy a new router but might end up doing so. I need a good router for being able to handle gaming etc.

So disappointed that Netgear sucks so bad that they can’t fix their routers.
Message 9 of 13
myersw
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@IrvSp 

Of course Ubiquiti is not perfect. Have never seen an electronics product that was perfect. 

One minor thing. I run the beta builds of the Ubiquiti Unifi equipment I have. These have some fixes that are still in the normal costomer builds shown in the forums you link. Of course there can be other issues. Had one beta for AP's where my Lennox thermostat would not connect to either band. Next build corrected that. Had to wait about 1 week. Compare that to Netgear where they have the same easily dupicated issues for months without a fix. 

--Bill
ISP Comcast, Modem-Netgear CM1150V, Router-Unifi Security Gateway-Pro4, AP-2 Unifi AP-LR
Tesla > Edison
Message 10 of 13
IrvSp
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?


@myersw wrote:

@IrvSp 

Of course Ubiquiti is not perfect. Have never seen an electronics product that was perfect. 

One minor thing. I run the beta builds of the Ubiquiti Unifi equipment I have. These have some fixes that are still in the normal costomer builds shown in the forums you link. Of course there can be other issues. Had one beta for AP's where my Lennox thermostat would not connect to either band. Next build corrected that. Had to wait about 1 week. Compare that to Netgear where they have the same easily dupicated issues for months without a fix. 


Bill, that is what is normally done with commercial products. It is driven by large corporations. Some companies have 'build lines' specific for a company. When a problem is reported by that company it gets built within a specific fime. If that problem is known to be common, the fix is included in the normal build tree for all.

 

Normally when you contact support you go to Level 1, and they are the first line of 'defense'. Normally they would work from scripts and databases. Object is to classify the report as known or not. If a build with your problem is available, they offer it up, something NG doesn't do. Determined to be new, up the chain it will go. Level 2 first. These are the folks that try to recreate the problem, and will contact you if need be. I'd suspect these are NOT coders either. Level 3 might be. Depends on the 'state' of the code/project. I don't know how NG or anyone else were to work, but usually support might not have access to the code to make changes. Last thing you want it 2 people doing that, one on new additions to the code, another fixing problems. I'll assume though that the code is 'completed' in that no new functions are designed for it (quite possible, these devices are not like OS's that continue to evolve. So L3 would be the coders.

 

Now if you think that on first contact a problem can be identified, coded, built, tested, and then handed to you in one week, well, I'd be surprised. Most likely the problem had been known and the build already done and regression tested (or known what problems were in it) and then offered to you.

 

NG doesn't work like that. Remember, when the last R7000 firmware was put out a moderator jumped into many R7000 threads and asked people to see if the last release fixed the problem... END USERS was doing Regression testing on released code! That is the CONFIDENCE that NG had that anything was fixed... not a good way to run support.

 

Be that as it may, still, when one looks at the forum I referenced, and from top level, it looks just like here. The percentage of 'check marks' is quite low. Yes, not every marks something solved, I get that. Still no vendor escapes having problems. Some might repond to problems faster, some might man the forums with true developers. Bottom line, you get what you pay for.

 

Think of Security s/w makers. You have 3 types, FREE, FEE, and a mixture. They operate differently. MS provides with the OS a level of security, Windows Defender. It generally falls at the bottom of sites that test security products. It isn't a full featured suite, but it does, to some level protect you. Of course MS probably can't do everything otherwise other security companies would yell they were being put out of business as MS had the access to the platform. Still better than nothing. Free vendors usually have Fee products as well. Same capability, but the free one usaully doesn't have all the features. Reasonable level of protection but might not be complete. Fee ones only, usually the best and fullest protection, some with features that others do not have, bundled products like backup or VPN's included. They deliver threat protection the fastest as well as assistance if you are attacked with some level of support.

 

You get what you pay for. Want that in routers, pay for it, either with commercial products or contracts.

 

Router are very 'simple' in the functions that should provide. The complex part is the environment and usage they are in. It is that level of complexity that makes it tough to test new firmware.

 

Some day the lower level routers will not cut it and they will need to evolve. Limiting to 32 devices per SSID might not be enough. What with IoT expanding in usage and automation areas it is concievable that homes could have a need for more than that, especially on the 5Ghz band (why do you think tri-bands started to appear). The 2.4Ghz band may not even be used much as there will hardly be new devices made for it as the higher speed is needed. Think about it, Hue light bulds in homes, guess how many, smart TV  in many rooms, tablets built into fridges and all over the house. Doorbells and security camera's, garage door opener's, coffee makers, flood detectors, door locks, the list goes on.

 

Bottom line, I'd glad you are happy. What I have works for me. Works for many others too. Many of us EXPECT what we bought to work and will push to have that happen. You made your choice, fine, but for many, for one reason or another, that is not an option. Live with it.

Message 11 of 13
IrvSp
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?


@jgscorpio wrote:
I did all that! I ended up rolling back my firmware version to a previous one and had zero issues.

Now, the WiFi is broadcasting but internet connection and data aren’t streaming through it. It’s so annoying. I was hoping I had fixed it and now I’m having issues again.


So what did you actually do? What was "I did all that"? What instructions did you follow?

 

Did that include RESETTING the router and manually entering is ALL settings again?

 

If you had 'zero issues' what and when did that change? Are you saying nothing was added and at some point problems appeared (unspecified what they were?)? No devices added or connected at that time? No power drops?

Message 12 of 13
myersw
Master

Re: NETGEAR, why can't you be open and HONEST with your user base?

@IrvSp 

Totally understand the support levels, have even done some of that. 

 

Supporting the +55 set has its "interesting" moments I bet. My brother and sister-in-law, wife's sister, can turn their PC's on and that is about it. More then once when I have visited I wound up fixing something. They are both still on Vista, by the way. 😉 You can imagine the age of their respective PC's. Have toyed with upgrading their hardware and OS, but that would be a nightmare as I am sure they do not know where any of the app install software is, assuming it would run under Windows 10. 

 

I also agree that it has to be a challenge for the firmware devs to test the code. Customers come up with some configuration combinations that they would never have thought of, much less test for. Also all the gosh darn combinations of wireless devices and expect all to just work without issue. Of course the device support group will just point a finger at the router, we have all seen that. Biggest issue that I see is the same basic issues are in the firmware build after build. Yes NG screwed up when releasing the .64 code for the r7000 and put out the forum notice. I suspect that was an oops that the code went out and that was the only way to let folks know there could be issues. 

 

No I am not so stupid as to assume if I notify Ubiquiti or any other support group that they have coders just waiting for my call/forum entry and jump on the problem. I agree that the beta code that Ubiquiti pushes out, is already in the pipe line, and I probably go lucky with the fix, in my case, about a week after the code that had issues. The period between the beta in question and the next beta was shorter then usual so probably other issues as well. 

 

I was a Program Support Rep at IBM and was trained on MVS. Hunted down more then one bug for a customer, even IBM had bugs in their OS. 😉 Sometimes I was able to come up with a fix as well as report the problem to the support people. MVS was written in assembler by the way. Fun times. 

 

Thing that really pushed me over the edge with NS was when daughter was visiting and could not get connected to wireless, running r8000 at that time. Had the version of firmware that would not allow new connections, if you think back. Rebooted then she could. She has had issues when visiting before so she was not surprised that dad's wifi was not any good. Decided to fix the issue, and in this case rip out the network and start over with, in my case, Unifi products. She has visited since then and things have just worked. Girl that lives with me, long story there, has friends over and they never have connection issues either anymore. 

 

Glad the r8000 is running for you. 

--Bill
ISP Comcast, Modem-Netgear CM1150V, Router-Unifi Security Gateway-Pro4, AP-2 Unifi AP-LR
Tesla > Edison
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