RBK50: Ethernet Backhaul + Multi Gig

[KiccoLSD]

Hi there,

I'm in trouble with my new network setup which include a Multigig ISP router (10Gbit GPON) and Orbi RBK50 (1 Router in AP Mode and 2 Sats). My goals are: Keep a multi gig link from ISP router to 2,5Gbit Switch and Orbi Ethernet Backhaul working.

Can someone help me?

Network Configs

[FURRYe38 · Accepted solution]

If your connecting your 2.5Gb PC to the nr2 switch then this will work to maintain the 2.5Gb speed from the host router to the PC. 

You can connect the RBR to nr2 here as well, then connect the RBS if you want it ethernet connected to the back of the RBR or use the D-Link switch in between the RBR and RBS for this segment of the chain. 

You could connect the RBR to nr1 switch then behind the RBR, directly connect the RBS or connect the DLink switch behind the RBR then connect the RBS to the DLink switch in this segment.  

[schumaku]

Classic Orbi is making a Gigabit Ethernet backhaul only, no MultiGig.

[KiccoLSD]

Thx for your reply. If you check network schemes to fix this I use a direct cable from ISP router to Multi Gig Switch and Orbis are cable connected to ISP LAN port and Switch. If you want take a look at linked network maps

[CrimpOn]

Config #1 does not product a wired backhaul because the Orbi router (in any 'mode') expects to see satellites on one or more of its LAN ports, not on the WAN port.  That is why config#2 produces a wired backhaul.

The obvious solution is to place a second cable from one of the LAN ports on the router over to the gig switch in the second location. 

Depending on the capabilities of the ISP router, it might be possible to go from the router LAN port back to the ISP router. i.e. have two cables linking ISP router and Orbi router.

One user found a way to use VLANs to have a single cable carry more than one network.  His situation was the router being away from the ISP and he needed to get the ISP traffic to the router and then the LAN traffic back to the network over a single cable.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Disabling-automatic-subnet-reconfig/m-p/2031354#M110164 

With this system in access point mode, it may be that the only thing 'missing' is information about where WiFi devices have attached.  Everything is in the same IP subnet.  It could be that the Ethernet adapters will router traffic correctly over the wired network and the 'backhaul' between Orbi units is not required.  Does config#1 "work" in the sense that devices have internet and can communicate?

[FURRYe38]

Since the 50 series is limited by it's hardware at 1Gb WAN and LAN ports, this whille be the max that the 50 series will support for ethernet back haul. 

If you want 2.5Gb multi gig ethernet backhaul, you'll need to get into a 9 series Orbi system that has a 10Gb WAN on the RBR and 2.5Gb on the RBR and RBS LAN side, using CAT6A STP cabling, you'll get 2.5GB ethernet backhaul to the RBS from the RBR. This works on my 9 series.  You'll need an extra 2.5 or 10Gb LAN switch if you have two or more RBS connected...XS505M and GS110MX work great with the 9 series.

[KiccoLSD]

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@CrimpOn wrote:

Config #1 does not product a wired backhaul because the Orbi router (in any 'mode') expects to see satellites on one or more of its LAN ports, not on the WAN port.  That is why config#2 produces a wired backhaul.

The obvious solution is to place a second cable from one of the LAN ports on the router over to the gig switch in the second location. 

Does config#1 "work" in the sense that devices have internet and can communicate?

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Thx for your help CrimpOn.

Config#1 deliver internet and communication allover the network area. Everything works flawless except from Ethernet Backhaul. It was also in my mind that the only way to achieve EthBackhaul and Multigig is a second cable but I tried asking here to check if I missed something.

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[KiccoLSD]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

Since the 50 series is limited by it's hardware at 1Gb WAN and LAN ports, this whille be the max that the 50 series will support for ethernet back haul. 

If you want 2.5Gb multi gig ethernet backhaul, you'll need to get into a 9 series Orbi system that has a 10Gb WAN on the RBR and 2.5Gb on the RBR and RBS LAN side, using CAT6A STP cabling, you'll get 2.5GB ethernet backhaul to the RBS from the RBR. This works on my 9 series.  You'll need an extra 2.5 or 10Gb LAN switch if you have two or more RBS connected...XS505M and GS110MX work great with the 9 series.

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Thx for your reply FURRYe38. I know series 9 is the perfect fit for my setup but I'm happy with Series5 and I cannot afford a Series9 4 element setup now. Btw Series5 performance are ok for my WiFi connected devices also its Gig Ethernet Backhaul is enough. The only thing I'm trying to obtain is find a way to restore Gigabit Ethernet Backhaul with my new setup. Maybe One day I'll jump in Series9 or 10... 😁

[CrimpOn]

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@KiccoLSD wrote:

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Config#1 deliver internet and communication allover the network area. Everything works flawless except from Ethernet Backhaul. It was also in my mind that the only way to achieve EthBackhaul and Multigig is a second cable but I tried asking here to check if I missed something.

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Access point mode is an interesting situation.  Since the 'router' performs no "router functions" (DHCP, DNS, NAT, port forwarding, etc.), it is not essential that every packet pass through the router.  All that is required is for each of the Orbi units to know how to forward packets from one device on the IP subnet to another.  Switches do this by keeping a table of MAC addresses for each port.  When a packet comes in addressed to some MAC address, they search the table, find the correct port, and forward the packet.

My guess is that the WiFi backhaul link between router and satellites is nearly silent, as all the traffic is going through the wired connections.

It would be fascinating to hear if the Orbi system accurately describes which unit each WiFi device has chosen (router, satellite1, satellite2).

[KiccoLSD]

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@CrimpOn wrote:

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@KiccoLSD wrote:

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Config#1 deliver internet and communication allover the network area. Everything works flawless except from Ethernet Backhaul. It was also in my mind that the only way to achieve EthBackhaul and Multigig is a second cable but I tried asking here to check if I missed something.

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My guess is that the WiFi backhaul link between router and satellites is nearly silent, as all the traffic is going through the wired connections.

It would be fascinating to hear if the Orbi system accurately describes which unit each WiFi device has chosen (router, satellite1, satellite2).

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If I check RBR50 GUI it show me Sats are linked with 5G backhaul and I can trust this because, even if it performs well in download ad upload with 500Mbit \ 500Mbit ping is significantly higher. Download ping is 200ms vs 30ms with old config. Switching to second question, with actual config RBR50 is in trouble with connected devices. Trusting its GUI everything is connected to router (not true) and also connection type is wrong (WiFi \ Wired). If you check every Sat GUI they have accurate connected devices and link type table bit without device name (it says unknown). Orbi App works but network map didn't show Sats but only connected devices. With old config everything was correctly displayed on RBR50 GUI and App.

[CrimpOn]

Appears there are two choices:

• Run the ISP connection through the Orbi and into the switch, which will make the network map correct, but restrict the connection to 1GB, or
• Keep the full 2.5GB available (to what?), but the network map will be useless.

Sometimes we can't have everything we want.

[KiccoLSD]

I think I'll for the third way, the one we talked about in first post.

I'll add a Cat6 cable running from Orbi RBR50 to 1Gig Switch in first location. This way if I understand I'm going to have a fast lane to connect my workstation at 2,5 Gig and a single Switch with all Orbi linked together allowing for Ethernet Backhaul.

Thx for your help CrimpOn

[FURRYe38]

I would presume if you ran a 2.5Gb or multi gig cable from the multi gig port on the main host router to a multi gig switch with your 2.5Gb PC connected, this would maintain the 2.5G or multi gig connection speed through out the segment. If you just added the Orbi system to the switch, RBR or RBS at the end point switch, all connections thru the RBR or RBS would be 1Gb only. If you go from the multi gig router to the RBR then to the switch, you not maintain the 2.5Gb speed thru this segment as the speed would be lowered going thru the RBR and RBS. 

[schumaku]

A CAT 6 (or CAT 6A or CAT 7 or CAT 8 cable does not magically make a faster or fast lane (a marketing term from crappy wireless extenders) connection. To gain 2.5 Gb/s or 5 Gb/s or 10 Gb/s  throughput, the complete link must support the named Ethernet link speed. A 1 GbE Ethernet plus some "expensive" physical cable alone isn't enough. Amazing on how these dreams seem to remain alive in the net forever. Just because somebody bought some a capable cabling system like the ones we deploy https://www.rdm.com/cat-8-1/ won't make a capable MultiGig net - but it's the essential requirement for installing the latest active Ethernet switching.

[KiccoLSD]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

I would presume if you ran a 2.5Gb or multi gig cable from the multi gig port on the main host router to a multi gig switch with your 2.5Gb PC connected, this would maintain the 2.5G or multi gig connection speed through out the segment. 

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Exactly

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

 If you just added the Orbi system to the switch, RBR or RBS at the end point switch, all connections thru the RBR or RBS would be 1Gb only. 

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Not the point. I don't use Orbi LAN port but link all Orbi to one switch seem to be mandatory in order to achieve Ethernet Backhaul and with only on Ethernet Cable i have to choose between ISP main router (Multigig) and Orbi (Ethernet Backhaul)

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

If you go from the multi gig router to the RBR then to the switch, you not maintain the 2.5Gb speed thru this segment as the speed would be lowered going thru the RBR and RBS. 

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Exactly. I tried asking here to understand if Ethernet Backhaul could work with multiple switch in the middle but the answer seem to be no. The only way to achieve both seem to be a second Ethernet Cat6 cable.

[KiccoLSD]

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@schumaku wrote:

A CAT 6 (or CAT 6A or CAT 7 or CAT 8 cable does not magically make a faster or fast lane (a marketing term from crappy wireless extenders) connection. To gain 2.5 Gb/s or 5 Gb/s or 10 Gb/s  throughput, the complete link must support the named Ethernet link speed. A 1 GbE Ethernet plus some "expensive" physical cable alone isn't enough. Amazing on how these dreams seem to remain alive in the net forever. Just because somebody bought some a capable cabling system like the ones we deploy https://www.rdm.com/cat-8-1/ won't make a capable MultiGig net - but it's the essential requirement for installing the latest active Ethernet switching.

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Don't know if you are talking to me but never dream about cable itself making a multigig LAN. I'm just trying to find the best way to connect my mac with a 2,5 Gbit "lane" and use my old Orbi in the best mode allowed 

[FURRYe38]

Yes actually Orbi will work with daisy chained switches in the middle. I have 3 currently between my RBR and RBS. I recommend no more than 3 in a chain. 

I recommend using same brand and model non managed switches. CAT6A STP for multi gig switches. CAT6 UTP for 1Gb switches. NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3, D-Link DGS-105/108 and HP ProCurve 1400/1800 series switches work for Orbi systems. XS505M and GS110MX work great with the 9 series. 

[KiccoLSD]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

Yes actually Orbi will work with daisy chained switches in the middle. I have 3 currently between my RBR and RBS. I recommend no more than 3 in a chain. 

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Are you using 3 different switches to link 3 orbi? I was sure that every Orbi must connect to the same switch to achieve Ethernet Backhaul. If I understand well why my Config1 is not a Daisy Chain? ISP router LAN (1 x 10Gbit + 4 x 1Gbit) port doesn't act like a switch?

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

I recommend using same brand and model non managed switches. CAT6A STP for multi gig switches. CAT6 UTP for 1Gb switches. NG GS-105/108v4 and GS308v3, D-Link DGS-105/108 and HP ProCurve 1400/1800 series switches work for Orbi systems. XS505M and GS110MX work great with the 9 series. 

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Thx for suggestion I'll keep in mind while buying a new cable... instead talking abouth switches this time I'm going to use my old tested TP-Link TL-SG1008D V5.1 

[FURRYe38]

As long as the head switch IS connected behind the RBR and follow on switches are connected on this same segment chain, the RBR connected at the last switch will sync over ethernet to the RBR correctly. 

My 7 series is currently using a NG GS108, GS308 and a GS105 in this segment with my RBS in the basement connected to the GS-105 there. The NG GS108 being connected behind the RBR. 

Some caveats, Some managed switches or some green ethernet features switches seem to cause problems historically when the RBS are ethernet connected of these switches are deployed. The brands and models I listed are tested and tried across 4 different Orbi model systems including the 50 series. 

[KiccoLSD]

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@FURRYe38 wrote:

As long as the head switch IS connected behind the RBR and follow on switches are connected on this same segment chain, the RBR connected at the last switch will sync over ethernet to the RBR correctly. 

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There is something I'm missing here. The only real difference I can see from my old config and new is that Orbi Router is connected to ISP router and not direct to the Switch. Following your suggestion if I put another Zyxel MG105 I can do the magic? 

Something like that:

ISP Router ---> MG105 nr1* ---> MG105 nr2** --->DGS-1100***

*Zyxel 2,5Gig unmanaged: Orbi Router (AP mode) connected

**Zyxel 2,5Gig unmanaged: Orbi Sat1

***Dlink Managed: Orbi Sat2 connected (it works before with Ethernet Backhaul, I can bypass if needed or replace)

What do you think? It could be ok?

Spoiler

Old config:

ISP Router ---> Orbi Router (AP mode) ---> TL-SG1008D* ---> DGS-1100**

*TP LINK Green: Orbi Sat1 connected + Orbi Router connected

** Dlink Managed: Orbi Sat2 connected

EthBack working

Actual config: 

SAGEMCOM 5684s* ---> MG105** ---> DGS-1100***

*ISP ROUTER: Orbi Router (AP mode) connected

**Zyxel 2,5Gig unmanaged: Orbi Sat1 connected

*** Dlink Managed: Orbi Sat2 connected

EthBack KO

Actual Config Alternative:

SAGEMCOM 5684s* ---> MG105---> TL-SG1008D**---> DGS-1100***

*ISP ROUTER: Orbi Router (AP mode) connected

**TP LINK Green: Orbi Sat1 connected 

*** Dlink Managed: Orbi Sat2 connected

EthBack KO

[FURRYe38 · Accepted solution]

If your connecting your 2.5Gb PC to the nr2 switch then this will work to maintain the 2.5Gb speed from the host router to the PC. 

You can connect the RBR to nr2 here as well, then connect the RBS if you want it ethernet connected to the back of the RBR or use the D-Link switch in between the RBR and RBS for this segment of the chain. 

You could connect the RBR to nr1 switch then behind the RBR, directly connect the RBS or connect the DLink switch behind the RBR then connect the RBS to the DLink switch in this segment.  

[KiccoLSD]

Here updated config, what do you think about? It's going to work for Ethernet Backhaul? 

click to zoom 

Thx for the time you are wasting helping me

[schumaku]

if you don't expect this to become kind of a 2.5G wired backhaul it's all fine.

[KiccoLSD]

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@schumaku wrote:

if you don't expect this to become kind of a 2.5G wired backhaul it's all fine.

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No I'm happy with 1G wired backhaul.

Goals are:

• Keep a 2.5G wired connection from ISP to my Workstation
• Keep a 1G wired backhaul for my RBK50 Orbi System
• Invest less money possible to achieve both of them at same time

[schumaku]

The Orbi will remain a 1 GbE device even in AP mode. There is no magic to plug a 2.5G network in some fancy random connection sequence or the like. It does not matter of the aggregated wireless backhaul is involved. 

[KiccoLSD]

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@schumaku wrote:

The Orbi will remain a 1 GbE device even in AP mode. There is no magic to plug a 2.5G network in some fancy random connection sequence or the like. It does not matter of the aggregated wireless backhaul is involved. 

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But it's ok (for now) 1GB wired backhaul... if I can obtain this I'm going to be happy!

I love the ultra low wifi ping that wired backhaul guarantee and 600Mbit\600Mbit on a mobile device is far enough for my actual needs.