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Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm


@BDubUT wrote:

Everytime I've tried using the WAN port with wired backhaul, it hasn't worked; 2.1.4.16 included.

 

 

I'm going to try disabling daisy-chaining, which should resolve this issue. If you're running wired backhaul, there shouldn't be a reason for it in the first place.


Honestly, if you're running wired backhaul- THIS is the wrong product for you in the first place.

 

If all my satelites could be hardwired- I'd be in heaven- and sure as hell NOT using this crap. I'd be running Ubuity APs and never looking back at another Netgear product again.

Message 51 of 72
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Master

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

OK.  Thanks.  Strange. Must be some sort of bug affecting the WAN port with wired backhaul and AP mode then.

 

 

Message 52 of 72
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Aspirant

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm


@lowepg wrote:

@BDubUT wrote:

Everytime I've tried using the WAN port with wired backhaul, it hasn't worked; 2.1.4.16 included.

 

 

I'm going to try disabling daisy-chaining, which should resolve this issue. If you're running wired backhaul, there shouldn't be a reason for it in the first place.


Honestly, if you're running wired backhaul- THIS is the wrong product for you in the first place.

 

If all my satelites could be hardwired- I'd be in heaven- and sure as hell NOT using this crap. I'd be running Ubuity APs and never looking back at another Netgear product again.

Heh, straight up access points would definitely make more sense. When we built our home 3 years ago, it didn't even cross my mind to run any CAT6 in the ceiling. I've got 18 CAT6 runs in my house, but none in the ceiling. Being a network engineer by trade, I should've had more foresight. 

 

Ubiquiti access points are meant to be ceiling mounted, not sit on a table. My problem is there aren't really a lot of table top access points. These "mesh" systems are really the second best option. 

Message 53 of 72
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Master

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm


@BDubUT wrote:

@lowepg wrote:

@BDubUT wrote:

Everytime I've tried using the WAN port with wired backhaul, it hasn't worked; 2.1.4.16 included.

 

 

I'm going to try disabling daisy-chaining, which should resolve this issue. If you're running wired backhaul, there shouldn't be a reason for it in the first place.


Honestly, if you're running wired backhaul- THIS is the wrong product for you in the first place.

 

If all my satelites could be hardwired- I'd be in heaven- and sure as hell NOT using this crap. I'd be running Ubuity APs and never looking back at another Netgear product again.

Heh, straight up access points would definitely make more sense. When we built our home 3 years ago, it didn't even cross my mind to run any CAT6 in the ceiling. I've got 18 CAT6 runs in my house, but none in the ceiling. Being a network engineer by trade, I should've had more foresight. 

 

Ubiquiti access points are meant to be ceiling mounted, not sit on a table. My problem is there aren't really a lot of table top access points. These "mesh" systems are really the second best option. 


I have Ubiquiti access points in my main house. They work perfectly fine placed upside down on top of wooden furniture. Two APs cover inside the house and the yard. I was able to run wires in that house.  I can't run wires in the house where I have Orbi.  That's why I have Orbi there. Smiley Happy

 

 

Message 54 of 72
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Aspirant

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Looking again, it looks like the Netgear WAC505 might fight the bill. Does anyone have any experience with them? I know people have a love/hate relationship with Insight, but is a cloud "controller" really needed for 2-3 APs?

Message 55 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

@BDubUT

Awesome, thanks for letting use know about the new FW and STP. Sounds like they finally fixed it and with managed switches. Will keep this on hand for future users.

 

Enjoy now. Hopefully. LOL.


@BDubUT wrote:

I can confirm the latest firmware, 2.1.4.16, enables spanning-tree (stp) on the Orbi router. This prevents loops, and therefore broadcast storms, from occuring. Wired backhaul is now stable for me, managed switch and all, even through multiple reboots.

 

Now if only Netgear could make it so the magenta LED doesn't glow in AP mode (since you're using the LAN port)...

 

Perhaps I'll keep my RBK23 afterall. Thanks FURRYe38.


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 56 of 72
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Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Just upgraded to Firmware 2.1.4.16 today and now my ethernet bakchaul is back to crashing my whole network. I upgraded through the prompt in the web gui. Before today the network had been very stable and reliable with one RBS satellite connected wirelessly and one via ethernet. I have currently tried powering the system down. Turning on the Orbi RTR *5 mins*, turn on 1st satellite *5 mins*, turn on 2nd satellite w/o ethernet connection established *5mins*. At this point the network functions and is stable. after 5-10 mins, I establish the ethernet connection to the one satellite and the network crashes. All cables are newer and tested. System had been stable in this exact config for the last few months once they worked out the Ethernet backhaul issues.

 

Thanks.

Model: RBK53| Orbi Router + 2 Satellites Orbi WiFi System
Message 57 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Any network switches in between the router and satellites?

Power OFF the Orbi router and satellites for 1 minute. Then power ON the router and test for internet. Then power ON the satellites 1 at a time. You might disconnect ALL other LAN devices while you do this.

Try disabling Daisy Chain, apply and reboot the router. You should power off the satellite(s) as well then back ON after the router is back to ready.

Try 1 satellite directly connected to the router via LAN cable. Can test this out in same room as router.

 


@RebelPeacock wrote:

Just upgraded to Firmware 2.1.4.16 today and now my ethernet bakchaul is back to crashing my whole network. I upgraded through the prompt in the web gui. Before today the network had been very stable and reliable with one RBS satellite connected wirelessly and one via ethernet. I have currently tried powering the system down. Turning on the Orbi RTR *5 mins*, turn on 1st satellite *5 mins*, turn on 2nd satellite w/o ethernet connection established *5mins*. At this point the network functions and is stable. after 5-10 mins, I establish the ethernet connection to the one satellite and the network crashes. All cables are newer and tested. System had been stable in this exact config for the last few months once they worked out the Ethernet backhaul issues.

 

Thanks.


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 58 of 72
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Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Thanks for the response. I have previously tried all your suggestions except only powering on 1 satellite (the one I wish to use cabled backhaul on). I will try that tonight, I will power everything down. Turn on the Router and let it settle and then I will fire up the satellite in question connected via cable. (This leaves one wireless backhaul satellite out of the picture for the testing period.)

 

Also, I will try tunring off daisy chain. However, that has not been an issue before and it won't be long unitl I deploy an outdoor satellite which of course will need to be daisychained. So I wouldn't really consider that a solution.

 

I'll let you know the results.

Model: RBS50| Orbi AC3000 Tri-band WiFi (Satellite Only)
Message 59 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Even though you can have mixed connections, I think daisy chain is for all satellites being wireless connected. So not sure if having mixed connected satellites with work with it enabled. You'll have to test it out. 

 


@RebelPeacock wrote:

Thanks for the response. I have previously tried all your suggestions except only powering on 1 satellite (the one I wish to use cabled backhaul on). I will try that tonight, I will power everything down. Turn on the Router and let it settle and then I will fire up the satellite in question connected via cable. (This leaves one wireless backhaul satellite out of the picture for the testing period.)

 

Also, I will try tunring off daisy chain. However, that has not been an issue before and it won't be long unitl I deploy an outdoor satellite which of course will need to be daisychained. So I wouldn't really consider that a solution.

 

I'll let you know the results.


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 60 of 72
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Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

I have a broadcast storm situation as well. I had to power down both satellites (RBS50)s because they are too far away for the WIFI Backchannel to work reliably. Every time I power a satellite on, Wireshark shows a dramatic increase in broadcasts and the entire network becomes inoperable.  My assumption is that the Wireless back channel is active while the Ethernet backchannel is active.  In my topology the Orbi Satellites are close enough for intermittent connections which cause a loop intermittently.  I believe that this is a bug in the software.  There needs to be a way to disable the WIFI back channel or have the software disable the WIFI backchannel when the Wired backchannel is active.

Model: RBR50| Orbi AC3000 Tri-band WiFi (Router Only), RBS50| Orbi AC3000 Tri-band WiFi (Satellite Only)
Message 61 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

 

What FW is currently loaded?
What is the Mfr and model# of the IP modem the Orbi is connected too?
What is the Mfr and model# of the ethernet switch if one is in the configuration.
What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and satellite(s)? 30 feet is recommended in between them to begin with depending upon building materials.

 
Try disabling the following and see:
MIMO, Daisy Chain, Fast Roaming, IPv6 and Set 20/40Mhz Coexistence to 40Mhz only. Save settings and reboot the router and satellite(s).

For wired back haul:
Set up IP address reservations for each satellite and devices on the router as you add them to the router. The satellites need to be set up via wireless first. Then connect 1 satellite at a time to the ethernet LAN cable. Wait 5 minutes and the top led on the satellite should turn on BLUE. Set up an IP address reservation for the 1st satellite. Continue to do the same thing for the 2nd satellite. Then follow up with your devices.


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 62 of 72
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Tutor

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

I too had this problem with V2.1.4.16 and ethernet backhaul.  I am running in AP mode behind a R7800 router.

 

The ethernet backhaul network must be dedicated to your ORBI devices.  If you have a switch between your main unit and satellites, no non-ORBI devices can be connected to that switch.  When ORBI devices see packets on the backhaul network segment that they didn't originate, those packets are forwarded to their other non-backhaul network interfaces.  If your switch is connected to both the backhaul and non-backhaul networks, you've created a switching loop and the network grinds to a halt.

 

In my house, I have a long ethernet cable run from where the ORBI router is to where the Satellite is located.  That cable is connected to ethernet switches on both ends where I connect other wired devices.  When I connected my ORBIs to each switch with a single cable, I created two backhaul networks: one provided by the ORBIs and the other provided by the switches.

 

To fix, I just connected the ORBIs between the switches instead of "outside" them like so:

 

Router -> Switch -> master ORBI WAN port -> master ORBI LAN port -> Long dedicated ethernet run -> Satellite LAN port -> another Satellite LAN port -> Switch -> other ethernet devices

 

The important thing is that each ORBI unit has two ethernet cables connected.  One for the backhaul network and the other for non-backhaul traffic.

 

My bandwidth tests with iperf3 show no performance hit between my two switches with the ORBIs in the middle.  Wireshark confirmed a happy network.

 

I think the Netgear wiring diagram cited by the OP did not expect anything else to be connected to the switch between the main ORBI unit and the satellites.

 

I hope this helps...

Model: RBK40| Orbi AC2200 WiFi System
Message 63 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Broadcast storms can be also seen if the DHCP service on the Orbi mis-takenly hands off 1 IP address to 2 different devcies. Seen this before as well. Users are encouraged to set up IP address reservations ON the main host router for each device, includeing satellites so that each devcies gets it's own IP address when turned on and should avoid IP address conflicts.

 

Direct connection of satellites to base Orbi is recommended however switches can be used between and or after the satellite. I use switches in between the main router and satellite for my system.

 https://kb.netgear.com/000051205/What-is-Ethernet-backhaul-and-how-do-I-set-it-up-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-Sy...

 

Be sure your using a non managed switch as well.

 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 64 of 72
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Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

I discovered that my issues was not as assumed.  My topology had switches between the Hub and Satellites which is not a problem until I had an issue with an ethernet connector that caused intermitten connection.  When the satellite lost connection to the hub because of the cable fault, it would bring up the wireless connection back to the hub. So the intermittent connection would cause intermittent loops.  I think a good solution to my problem would be to have the option to disable the wireless backhaul.

Message 65 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

LAN cables can be also a cause as well. Glad you found the problem.
Glad you got it fixed.

Enjoy. Smiley Wink


@skirby67 wrote:

I discovered that my issues was not as assumed.  My topology had switches between the Hub and Satellites which is not a problem until I had an issue with an ethernet connector that caused intermitten connection.  When the satellite lost connection to the hub because of the cable fault, it would bring up the wireless connection back to the hub. So the intermittent connection would cause intermittent loops.  I think a good solution to my problem would be to have the option to disable the wireless backhaul.


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 66 of 72
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Tutor

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm


@FURRYe38 wrote:

Broadcast storms can be also seen if the DHCP service on the Orbi mis-takenly hands off 1 IP address to 2 different devcies. Seen this before as well. Users are encouraged to set up IP address reservations ON the main host router for each device, includeing satellites so that each devcies gets it's own IP address when turned on and should avoid IP address conflicts.

In my case the ORBI system was in Access Point mode so the DHCP server was disabled.

 

Direct connection of satellites to base Orbi is recommended however switches can be used between and or after the satellite. I use switches in between the main router and satellite for my system.

The problem is not caused by using a switch between the ORBI router and satellite(s). That works fine. The problem is caused by connecting non-ORBI devices to that same switch and introducing foreign traffic to the backhaul network.

Message 67 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Understand. However I also have non Orbi devices connected to the in between switch on my system. Only issues I saw when a storm happend was a IP address conflict. Setting up an IP address reservation helped resolve this. Something to look out for in this kind of configuration. Non managed switches work well in between and hind the satellites along with non connected devices. Just make sure the IP addresses are good and reserved. 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 68 of 72
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Tutor

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Understand. However I also have non Orbi devices connected to the in between switch on my system. Only issues I saw when a storm happend was a IP address conflict. Setting up an IP address reservation helped resolve this. Something to look out for in this kind of configuration. Non managed switches work well in between and hind the satellites along with non connected devices. Just make sure the IP addresses are good and reserved. 

The IP address conflicts are caused by the broadcast storm not the other way around.  The root cause is that ARP packets (which are broadcast) are being dropped by the network.  When a device can't use ARP to find other devices on the network, it gives up and tries to get another IP address from the DHCP server.  Since the DHCP server also uses ARP (which is still broken) to find other devices on the network there is no way for the DHCP server to prevent IP address conflicts.  DHCP reservations give the DHCP server an alternative method to avoid duplicate IP addresses, but it does nothing to solve the ARP storm which broke the network in the first place.

 

An ARP storm is created when you have a duplicate link between network segments.  In my case, I already had an ethernet cable linking two rooms in my house.  Each room had a switch so I could connect multiple wired devices to the same cable.  When I added an Orbi to each room the Orbi's backhaul (either ethernet or wireless) added the second duplicate link.

 

When a device transmits a broadcast packet (like ARP) in one room, it must be forwarded to the other room over the long ethernet cable.  Since I have both the Orbi's and the switches connecting the two rooms the broadcast packet gets forwarded twice, by both the Orbi and also by the switch.  The problem begins when those two packets get to the other room.  Since there are two links the packet sent to the Orbi is forwarded to the switch and the packet sent to the switch is forwarded to the Orbi creating a loop.  This loop only kills broadcast traffic, but as you saw above traffic like ARP is pretty important to a network.

 

The fix is to eliminate the redundant link.  Since we want to use the Orbi's ethernet backhaul we need to make sure the two rooms can't also talk to each other through a switch.

 

I fixed my problem by unplugging the long ethernet cable from the switches and connecting it directly to my two Orbis.  I then connected the switches to a different ethernet port on each Orbi.  Now there is only one path between my rooms.  Everything flows through the Orbi and the broadcast storms are gone.

Message 69 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Interesting. Will keep this in mind. Well from what I saw maybe this was the case. However after getting my devices set up for reserved IPs, at least the two offending devices that seem to have a problem during the storm I saw, the satellite and my cell phone microcell, Once these were disconnected from the network and rejoined one at a time and give an IP address reservation, with the two switches in between, I haven't seen a storm since. So I just figured that these two devices along with a problem at the DHCP server ON the router had generated this storm I saw. I'll besure to keep this in mind for next time and for others. This is good information and hopefully NG will take heed on it. I do feel that there is a problem in the DHCP services in Orbi.

Can one of the forum moderators pass this along to NG engineering please for review?

@DarrenM

@Christian_R

 


@BubbaDoug wrote:
@FURRYe38 wrote:

Understand. However I also have non Orbi devices connected to the in between switch on my system. Only issues I saw when a storm happend was a IP address conflict. Setting up an IP address reservation helped resolve this. Something to look out for in this kind of configuration. Non managed switches work well in between and hind the satellites along with non connected devices. Just make sure the IP addresses are good and reserved. 

The IP address conflicts are caused by the broadcast storm not the other way around.  The root cause is that ARP packets (which are broadcast) are being dropped by the network.  When a device can't use ARP to find other devices on the network, it gives up and tries to get another IP address from the DHCP server.  Since the DHCP server also uses ARP (which is still broken) to find other devices on the network there is no way for the DHCP server to prevent IP address conflicts.  DHCP reservations give the DHCP server an alternative method to avoid duplicate IP addresses, but it does nothing to solve the ARP storm which broke the network in the first place.

 

An ARP storm is created when you have a duplicate link between network segments.  In my case, I already had an ethernet cable linking two rooms in my house.  Each room had a switch so I could connect multiple wired devices to the same cable.  When I added an Orbi to each room the Orbi's backhaul (either ethernet or wireless) added the second duplicate link.

 

When a device transmits a broadcast packet (like ARP) in one room, it must be forwarded to the other room over the long ethernet cable.  Since I have both the Orbi's and the switches connecting the two rooms the broadcast packet gets forwarded twice, by both the Orbi and also by the switch.  The problem begins when those two packets get to the other room.  Since there are two links the packet sent to the Orbi is forwarded to the switch and the packet sent to the switch is forwarded to the Orbi creating a loop.  This loop only kills broadcast traffic, but as you saw above traffic like ARP is pretty important to a network.

 

The fix is to eliminate the redundant link.  Since we want to use the Orbi's ethernet backhaul we need to make sure the two rooms can't also talk to each other through a switch.

 

I fixed my problem by unplugging the long ethernet cable from the switches and connecting it directly to my two Orbis.  I then connected the switches to a different ethernet port on each Orbi.  Now there is only one path between my rooms.  Everything flows through the Orbi and the broadcast storms are gone.


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 70 of 72
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NETGEAR Moderator

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

@BubbaDoug

@FURRYe38

 

Enginnering is aware and working on resolving these issues in future firmwares

 

 

~Christian 

Message 71 of 72
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Guru

Re: Orbi Ethernet Backhaul causing broadcast storm

Thank you Sir.


@Christian_R wrote:

 

Enginnering is aware and working on resolving these issues in future firmwares

 

 

~Christian 


 


My Setup (Cable 900Mbps/50Mbps)>CM1100>Orbi RBK50 v2.5.1.16 and Orbi RBK853 v3.2.11.2(AP Mode)
Additional NG HW: C7800/CM1100/CM1200, Orbi CBK40, Orbi RBK852, R7800, R7960P, EX7500/EX7700, XR450 and WNHDE111
Message 72 of 72