Reply
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@whsbuss-1 wrote:

I hope you realize that even with separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5G does not guarantee a better network. 


For me, it does as the objective is to consistently connect to 5 Ghz to obtain higher speed that it is possible with 2.4 Ghz only.

Message 26 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

SSID separation is obsolete, though. It's still being used today and most of wireless router/AP support this today.

 

You are comparing apple and orange between SSID separation and HDD partition.

Message 27 of 85
whsbuss-1
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@ChuckieCheese wrote:

@whsbuss-1 wrote:

I hope you realize that even with separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5G does not guarantee a better network. 


For me, it does as the objective is to consistently connect to 5 Ghz to obtain higher speed that it is possible with 2.4 Ghz only.


 

Not to be-labor the point, but higher connectivity speed (5G potential for 160mHz bandwidth) still does not guarantee you will realize it. Hope you find something that works for you (finished commenting on this).

Message 28 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Hey guys, just want to give a quick update.

 

After testing for a looong time, I still believe that having a separate SSID as an option will be beneficial for some people (like me).

 

I have tried disabling one satellite and even both satellites and there are STILL times where my MacBooks will connect to 2.4 Ghz. The MacBooks (3 of them) are located in the same place for weeks and they connect to 5Ghz and then switched to 2.4 Ghz automatically. When it does connect to 2.4 Ghz, it will stay connected to that. It will not connect back to 5Ghz and I had to turn off and on the Wifi in order to connect to 5Ghz.

 

This is where the MacBooks are stationary and happened with 2 satellites, 1 satellites and finally just the main router (no satellites).

 

When it connect to 2.4 Ghz, the fastest speed I get is 2~ MB/s. If I am connected to 5Ghz, I consistently get 8 MB/s.

Message 29 of 85
Uplink01
Star

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Hi, 

As it has been stated a few different times already, once the MacBook connects at 2.4Ghz, unless it drops below -75 dBm, it will NOT reconnect (or even attempt) to reconnect at 5Ghz, or even search for a closer/faster satellite for that matter. This is how macOS is currently designed, you can find the full details at: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206207

The bigger question that everyone is trying to help you with, is why is it dropping to 2.4Ghz in the first place. Typically when it is very random like it currently seems  to be (after you have reset your Orbi hardware) it could be due to something as silly as a microwave being turned on that is causing the 5Ghz network to not be strong enough for a moment in time and the MacBook is switching to the 2.4ghz band. Then as explained above, the 2.4Ghz network is strong enough that the system will not switch back automaticly becuse it doesn't drop below -75 dBm. So you will have to manaully turn off WiFi, and turn it back on. 

I like to use the app, WiFi Explorerm to help me see what is going on within my network. As I do live in a concrete built condo, with lots of neightbors that have lots of different WiFi setups, let alone the wireless devices in my house... Smiley Happy

Message 30 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@Uplink01 wrote:

Hi, 

As it has been stated a few different times already, once the MacBook connects at 2.4Ghz, unless it drops below -75 dBm, it will NOT reconnect (or even attempt) to reconnect at 5Ghz, or even search for a closer/faster satellite for that matter. This is how macOS is currently designed, you can find the full details at: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206207

The bigger question that everyone is trying to help you with, is why is it dropping to 2.4Ghz in the first place. Typically when it is very random like it currently seems  to be (after you have reset your Orbi hardware) it could be due to something as silly as a microwave being turned on that is causing the 5Ghz network to not be strong enough for a moment in time and the MacBook is switching to the 2.4ghz band. Then as explained above, the 2.4Ghz network is strong enough that the system will not switch back automaticly becuse it doesn't drop below -75 dBm. So you will have to manaully turn off WiFi, and turn it back on. 

I like to use the app, WiFi Explorerm to help me see what is going on within my network. As I do live in a concrete built condo, with lots of neightbors that have lots of different WiFi setups, let alone the wireless devices in my house... Smiley Happy


 

Yes, I understand. I read every single post and tried disabling the the satellite. Why is it dropping to 2.4 Ghz? From what I've tested so far, from turning off one satellite to keeping the same MacBook in the same place, I have no clue. One thing for sure is that with my old Time Capsule and other routers that support frequency separation, my MacBooks stay connected to 5 Ghz all the time. 

 

With multiple MacBooks and different routers tested (refer to my previous posts) which have dual SSID, so far only Orbi the one that won't hold to 5Ghz. If Orbi have dual SSID, maybe I can test that. 

Message 31 of 85
Uplink01
Star

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

I also have a 3TB Time Capsule that is currently hardwired in my Orbi as I still use it for my time machine backups on my new 15" MBP Touch Bar. 

When I was using my TC as my main router, or even older AirPorts before that, I also had separate SSID's for both 2.4 and 5Ghz, but the setup still wasn't the best solution. Even when I would force my devices to connect to 5Ghz and I did typically have a higher connection speed, as it would connect via AC not N, my actual connection was much weaker overall. If i started moving around with my devices I would basically lose signal all together, and have to manually go and connect to the slower 2.4Ghz network. That is the main reason I truly love having one SSID for everything. 

A few things that could be causing it?
- Firmware bug in the Orbi, and they have acknowledge a few of those already that will be hopefully fixed soon...? Smiley Tongue
- Some setting wtihin the Orbi being turned on/off that could be causing the issue...

- Orbi hardware issue, it could be possible... 

- macOS bug, are you running 10.12.4, all apps fully updated, etc? (Also have you removed all the Preferred Networks, sometimes those all need to be deleted to fix WiFi issues)
- MacBook hardware issue, less likely since it seems to be working with other wireless equipment...

- Location of the Orbi and/or Orbi Satellite, the Orbi and the TC are very different hardware, so you might need to move stuff around more to get a better location for your devices to work correctly. The Orbi router, and especially the Orbi Router + Satellite combo should have a much stronger range than much older TC...

- You could try another "mesh" hardware setup? But I will tell you after using Eero for awhile, if you are looking for top speeds, you won't get it with Eero, and from what I understand, most of the others as well, as Orbi truly wins the speed contest due to its dedicated backhaul design. Smiley Happy

Lastly, all "mesh" hardware are all using one SSID for everything that I am aware of, that is one of the major points of having a mesh network. Typically you get way more coverage, much faster connections on all parts of your network, with a lot less hassle. The ease of not having to change your SSID just because you are moving from room to room, or losing speed (up to 50% in most cases) because you using a repeater to extend your network, etc, are all major benefits to having a mesh hardware setup no matter the brand. But to be fair, I am not 100% sure if any of them support different SSID's for each band. 

Message 32 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Yeah, I am not sure what is going on. Could be my Orbi specifically or the wireless environment.

What I see is that my MacBooks, which have been stationary and happily connected to the Orbi at 5Ghz, will drop down to 2.4 Ghz and stay there. This is over a few weeks of testing.

With my Time Capsule, the MacBooks will probably experience the same thing but since I configured it to only connect to 5Ghz, it'll stay connected to that.

For now, I just reboot the MacBooks.
Message 33 of 85
rhester72
Virtuoso

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

I hate to ask the obvious question, but have you opened a support case with Apple or consulted their forums?

 

Rodney

Message 34 of 85
cue003
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

If you insist on the 5Ghz band on a solution that does not support or have separate ssids then I suggest you turn off the 2.4GHz radio all together then there will be nothing connected to it since it won't exist.

Orbi just may not be the solution for you. If/when they come out with the seperate said then you can revisit.

Message 35 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@cue003 wrote:
If you insist on the 5Ghz band on a solution that does NOT support or have separate ssids then I suggest you turn off the 2.4GHz radio all together then their will be nothing connected to it since it won't exist.

Orbi just may not be the solution for you. If/when they come out with the seperate said then you can revisit.

I am not "insisting". 

 

Through forums, people share their story, good or bad, and feature they want. If the manufacturer decided not to support a particular feature, so be it. However, my thread is FAR from "insisting". 

Message 36 of 85
JMU1998
Luminary

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Is it possible to turn off the 2.4GHz on the satellite?  The main unit has the option to do so but satellite does not?

Message 37 of 85
ChuckieCheese
Apprentice

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

I do want to keep both 2.4 and 5Ghz because some of my devices only support 2.4 Ghz.

Message 38 of 85
mostlyfoild
Tutor

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

I completely agree with you @ChuckieCheese I think that I should be able to choose whuch SSID I connect a device too. I like to have my AppleTV and my iPhone and Macbook only connected to 5ghz for the speed bump (which is massive) and then I connect all the IoT things to the 2.4 channel.

When I connect to the Orbi I get laggy HD video

When my phone is connected to the 2.4ghz on a different Netgear router, I get laggy HD video streaming on 100Mbps Fibre.

When I connect to the 5Ghz on the other Netgear router no laggy HD video

 

It would be amazing if I could choose which SSID I connect devices to. I can't turn off the 2.4ghz antenna because a lot of the IoT devices don't yet support 5Ghz

Message 39 of 85
OrbiMan
Luminary

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Here this will end this thread to each their own. I personally don't have the need for this. Apple is just stupid Smiley Happy
https://www.reddit.com/r/orbi/comments/5svxmy/howto_configure_different_ssids_for_24_and_5ghz/
Message 40 of 85
OrbiPhilip
Luminary

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

When troubleshooting, the ability to force certainconditions is key. Especially when troubleshooting a complex (and invisible) system like wireless. SSID separation is means to force a specific condition, thereby eliminating one or more variables.  Whether it is best practice or not is a different discussion. And as every situation is different, best practices are not always best for every sitution.

Model: Orbi High-Performance AC3000 Tri-Band WiFi System (RBK50)
Message 41 of 85
ikjadoon
Star

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Agreed. Once you need more options, then you really need them. 

 

I think the next Orbi FW should have a few more options in the next FW not for the sake of having options, but because of issues suffered by typical Orbi customers: backhaul signal quality and diagnosis (tell if your units are too close, if your Satellites have a strong connection numerically), separated 2.4GHz/5GHz SSIDs, unified webpage to tell which clients are connecting to which unit (router vs satellite; instead of having to open another page), etc. 

 

If these all need to be hidden inside a "debug mode", by all means. But, that's exactly it: once you need it, you really need it. Maybe these are the symptoms of a "our first WiFi system" by Netgear.

Message 42 of 85
yashart7
Aspirant

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Got mine today and found out the hard way that there is not separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5ghz. The router provided to me from ATT has this functionality. Not sure why this $350 replacement/upgrade does not. I'm inclined to retutn this. Thanks Netgear

Message 43 of 85

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@yashart7 wrote:

Got mine today and found out the hard way that there is not separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5ghz. The router provided to me from ATT has this functionality. Not sure why this $350 replacement/upgrade does not. I'm inclined to return this. Thanks Netgear


its because it designed to automate your wifi environment both in AP steering and band steering , you will find most of the mesh systems work this way as to get the best wifi coverage is to be able to balance those steerings automatically , if you didnt do this the steering would be compromised and make the orbi less effectual 

 

your clients should be smart enough to connect to the 5 gig band if its available and most clients you can force them to connect to one band or another 

Message 44 of 85
st_shaw
Master

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp


@yashart7 wrote:

Got mine today and found out the hard way that there is not separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5ghz. The router provided to me from ATT has this functionality. Not sure why this $350 replacement/upgrade does not. I'm inclined to retutn this. Thanks Netgear


A single SSID is required for clients to seamlessly roam between access points.  Setup this way, your device will switch from router to satellite, and also from 5 GHz to 2.4 GHz when you get out of range of 5 GHz. This is how most enterprise systems are configured.

 

What are you doing that requires separate SSIDs?

 

 

 

Message 45 of 85
TheEther
Guru

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Most clients cannot be forced to connect to a specific band. That's the whole point of this discussion.

BTW, thank you, Uplink01, for the helpful link on MacOS roaming behavior. I'll note that it states that the threshold for roaming is -67 dBm at 5 GHz, not -75 dBm. -75 dBm only applies to 2.4 GHz. This means that MacOS will be more aggressive about roaming at 5 GHz. Given that 5 GHz signals are generally weaker than 2.4 GHz, it won't take much to trigger a roaming search.

Chuckie cheese, you should monitor the RSSI levels and see if they ever drop below -67 dBm. You may also want to check the logs on the Mac about what's going on with WiFi. You can either use the Console app or look in /var/log/. system.log is the main log file but other files may be worth a look, too.

 

[Edit: I forgot to add that my bet is that the Orbi is briefly dropping the Wi-Fi connection.  There are other threads where people complain about this.]

Message 46 of 85
mostlyfoild
Tutor

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

I’m confused by the first paragraph of this post @TheEther on every device (client) I connect to my wifi usually I am given the choice of either the 2.4 or the 5Ghz network to connect to. They have different SSIDs... and unique passwords which I have created. Therefore I am able to connect high throughput devices like iPhones and AppleTVs to the 5Ghz do they get super fast browsing/streaming speeds and things that require little or no speed (like LIFX or Hue) to the 2.4 account. It’s also worth noting that I can’t get SONOS to see Orbi at all.
Message 47 of 85
TheEther
Guru

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

mostlyfoild, there are two different concepts, SSIDs and frequency bands (i.e. 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz).  When you have two different SSIDs and each one is associated to a different frequency band, then you can, effectively, connect a device to a specific frequency band by joining the appropriate SSID.

 

But, the point of this thread is that the Orbi uses the same SSID for both frequency bands.  Therefore, you cannot easily connect a device to a specific frequency band.  As I stated earlier, most devices lack the capability to select a specific frequency band.  Whenever I connect my iPhone an SSID that has multiple frequency bands, it has never prompted me to choose which band to use.

Message 48 of 85
st_shaw
Master

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

@mostlyfoild If you want Sonos to connect to Orbi, you might try going into the GUI, Advanced, Advanced Setup, Wireless Settings and uncheck "Enable 20/40 MHz Coexistence" This has allowed some of my 2.4G-only devices to connect to Orbi.

 

I have Sonos, but personally I would never connected it using WiFi.  Sonos has its own sophisticated mesh network, and that works extremely well. It's a true mesh network and can cover an entire home exceptionally well.

 

Message 49 of 85
st_shaw
Master

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

@TheEther Respectfully, you need to reread that Apple link more carefully. It does not state a different roaming threshold for 5Gz. What it says is that 5Ghz APs are usually overlapped at the -67 dBm level, and therefore macOS clients will hang onto an AP longer than expected. (Due to the -75 dBm roaming threshold, you can travel far into another APs zone before the client will switch.)

 

If you are reading something else that I missed, please correct me, but here is the passage:

 

"macOS clients monitor and maintain the current BSSID’s connection until the RSSI crosses the -75 dBm threshold. After RSSI crosses that threshold, macOS scans for roam candidate BSSIDs for the current ESSID.
Consider this threshold in view of the signal overlap between your wireless cells. macOS maintains a connection until the -75 dBm threshold, but 5 GHz cells are designed with a -67 dBm overlap. Those clients will remain connected to the current BSSID longer than you expect."

Message 50 of 85
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