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Backup permissions failure

Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Backup permissions failure

Hello. I have a Duo v2 that I've never really used properly. I've finally put some time into figuring out how to do proper backups from my Windows 7 PC on my home network. I have run several tests creating shares starting with a small folder and working up to my Music folder. I was able to backup up successfully (eventually) each time. However, when I try to backup my entire C:\ drive, the backup fails due to denials of permission for some files. I suspect that its mainly Microsoft files that are causing the problem. I can continue to backup like this knowing that at least my personal files are safe, but it's annoying nonetheless. Is there a solution or "work around" for this? I'm just an ordinary home user, so it needs to be fairly straightforward.

 

Many thanks!

Model: RND2110v2|ReadyNAS Duo v2 1TB (1 X 1TB Desktop)
Message 1 of 16
StephenB
Guru

Re: Backup permissions failure

What firmware are you running?

Message 2 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

RAIDiator 5.3.13

Message 3 of 16
Sandshark
Sensei

Re: Backup permissions failure

A NAS-based backup of a Windows machine will not back up files you can only access when Windows User Account Control pops up nor files that are in use (like an outlook .pst file).  A much better way to back-up a Windows machine is to use something on the Windows side that is capable of creating a shadow copy and then backing that up and then the NAS as the target for the backup file(s).  The old Backup and Restore (Windows 7) is still around, but rather limited (especially no version control).  I and @StephenB both use Acronis True Image, but there are other options available, including free ones.

Message 4 of 16
StephenB
Guru

Re: Backup permissions failure


@Sandshark wrote:

A NAS-based backup of a Windows machine will not back up files you can only access when Windows User Account Control pops up nor files that are in use (like an outlook .pst file).  


Correct.  And much of the Windows operating system itself is protected from access.

 


@Sandshark wrote:

  I and @StephenB both use Acronis True Image, but there are other options available, including free ones.


Yes.  One thing to think about is whether you want to back up user documents, or if you want to back up the entire PC.  I back up the entire PC, so I can recover everything if the PC is compromised by malware or if the C drive fails.

Message 5 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Backing up my user docs is essential, but I've learned from experience that some software creates it own little data files (such as Photoshop catalogue files) that it doesn't tell you about and stores them in hard-to-find places. If you don't know about them, they're lost when the inevitable crash occurs. Then there's the pain of finding and re-installing all those quirky programs. There's also Outlook, with all your contacts and historical correspondence. Just setting up my email accounts again is a great challenge for me. A simple solution to all this is highly desirable. I'll take a look at Acronis . . .

Message 6 of 16
StephenB
Guru

Re: Backup permissions failure


@Usernameinuse wrote:

 I'll take a look at Acronis . . .


If you want to be able to do a bare-metal restore, then you'd want an image backup.  This creates an image file (in the case of Acronis, the extension is .tib).  It can make incremental image backups - my configuration does a full-image backup every 8 weeks or so, and does an incremental image backup every week in between.

Message 7 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

Acronis gets very mixed reviews, including plenty of quite damning ones - especially in more recent years. Are there any others that are simple, reliable, and not intrusive?

Message 8 of 16
Sandshark
Sensei

Re: Backup permissions failure

Are you looking for just file backup, or image backup?  Acronis can do both, some are better (or only) for one or the other.  Some of the free ones can't back up to a NAS.

 

I moved to Acronis when the work-arounds to make Norton Ghost work under Windows10 finally stopped working, and in that time it has not failed me.  I moved from a single drive to RAID on one computer, transferring the image via Acronis, and I had a drive failure on another, and restored to the new (differently sized) drive without problems.  I've never tried it's purported capability to move an image to entirely different hardware, as I think most of the licenses would become invalid.

 

I am the "family IT guy" and everyone brings their ailing computers to me.  The first thing I do is back up the hard drive (assuming it's not the point of failure) using a bootable version of Acronis, so the worst that can happen is I return it to them in the same condition it came to me.  It has not failed me there, either; and there have been a couple times I tried and failed at something, restored, and tried again till I got it right.  Then, I image again andI keep that image made after the fix on my NAS for the next time, just in case.  I've also not tried it's "try before you commit" capability where you can save the current state, try something, and go back if it didn't work without having to do a full restore

 

I ran out of Acronis licenses and tried EaseUs ToDo Backup Free on a PC I set up in my server rack that I planned to run Windows on but with a Linux VM also always running.  I screwed something up, and when I went to restore the image backup, the bootable version failed to be able to do so from any of the multiple versions it had saved.  I don't know if their paid version would do any better, as they are now on my blacklist.  I bought more Acronis licenses, but have not re-started trying to set that PC back up.

 

Acronis does suffer from an affliction common to Microsoft, changing things just because they can, and that does throw off some users who move along with the versions.  But I find little reason to upgrade with every version, anyway, though Acronis does drop support of older versions since they come out with one every year.  The 2017 version on my computers is now post support, but I've never needed their support.  This is, of course, also intended to drive users toward the yearly licensed version instead of the perpetual version I use.

Message 9 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

I've figured out how to back up files and folders to my NAS using the ReadyNAS software. I would really like to avoid having to find all my software and product keys, do driver downloads, and have to instal and set everything up from scratch again, so I think a disc image is the thing to aim for. A backup to my NAS gives me some redundancy, but wouldn't help if the house burned down, so I intend doing occasional backups to a portable SSD as well and keeping that in my safety deposit box. I would like the backups to be uncompressed and accessible on a file by file basis if necessary.

 

I like things that are simple and reliable. I've been running Windows 7 and Office 2003 for years. They do much more than I need, so I see no reason to change. Ultimately, some catastrophe will lead to an insurmountable incompatibility and I'll have to replace everything, but I'll keep my rig running for as long as I can.

 

A friend has just informed me that Microsoft has deactivated the licence keys for Windows and Office, so that these products can no longer be moved to new hard drives. That MS would deliberately disable a perpetual licence is beyond the pale. So the next question is whether disc images also have their licensed software disabled. I suppose this is why some MS files can't be backed up.

 

If this is true, then it's yet another ploy to drive us towards subscription models. This is likely to drive me towards buying a Mac instead so that I can have a freely up-dated OS and on-board Office-like applications. I'll then keep my old PCs for all my non-Microsoft software, most of which is rock-solid and will run forever. I'd still like to be able to do a disc image for this stuff, but at least I wouldn't be held to ransom by MS.

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to try Acronis - it gets many truly dreadful reviews (all the way back to 2014). I'm starting to look for alternatives - I've found AOMIE so far, but haven't delved into it very far.

 

 

 

Message 10 of 16
StephenB
Guru

Re: Backup permissions failure

In terms of backup goals - the main reason I have a NAS is to consolidate our storage.  Pre-NAS our files were scattered around - making them hard to find, and also resulting in multiple competing versions on different machines. Files we want to keep are supposed to be on the NAS, and not scattered on one or more PCs.  Our PCs have less storage than they used to have - partly because they all use SSDs, but also that is an intentional decision because we simply don't need as much storage on them. 

 

Of course sometimes we aren't all as as disciplined on putting stuff on the NAS as we should be, but overall we are pretty good about that. 

 

So the primary purpose of our PC backups is to recover the PC software easily from a hard drive failure (a bare-metal restore).  A secondary purpose is to recover documents, etc that somehow weren't put on the NAS as they should have been.

 


@Usernameinuse wrote:

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to try Acronis - it gets many truly dreadful reviews (all the way back to 2014).

 


Up to you of course.  I've used its image backup method for quite a while now (like @Sandshark I needed an alternative to Norton Ghost when it no longer worked with Windows).  Not sure what you are seeing in the reviews, but it has worked reasonably well for me - and I have had to use those backups to do a couple of bare-metal restores over the years.  It can be a bit tricky to set up, but it does have quite a few features that I like.

 

Generally it runs automatically on schedule and back ups up our 4 PCs without needing my attention. But I have had a couple of issues with it from time to time.  In particular, I keep an eye on the backup destination, since it doesn't always delete the old image backups.  And once or twice I've needed to reinstall it.  

 

Like @Sandshark I don't upgrade it very often.  I have one 2016 license, and three 2018 licences in force at the moment. All I use is their image backup, I don't use their cloud backup features.

 

 


@Usernameinuse wrote:

A friend has just informed me that Microsoft has deactivated the licence keys for Windows and Office, so that these products can no longer be moved to new hard drives. That MS would deliberately disable a perpetual licence is beyond the pale. So the next question is whether disc images also have their licensed software disabled. I suppose this is why some MS files can't be backed up.

 


First, Acronis does let you allocate their licenses to machines using their website.  So you can move them easily from machine to machine.

 

But this licensing thing is a red herring - not really relevant to your backup problem.  You can't back up the files either because they are open, or because Microsoft isn't allowing access to the system files.  This is to reduce the risk of malware/ransomware corrupting them.  It has nothing to do with licensing.

 

I believe Microsoft's license policy hasn't changed (and they wouldn't be able to change terms on existing licenses). The policy I see is here: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_install-mso_other-msoversion_other/copy-...   They have several different kinds of licenses - including OEM licenses that are locked to specific machines, and retail licenses that can be transfered.  And of course they do now have some subscription based licenses.

 

The bare metal restores I've done are always to the same machine, so there are no license issues after the restore.  As far as Microsoft (and others) are concerned, it's the same install- they can't detect any difference, so there is no transfer needed.   

 

If I tried to do the restore to a different machine, I would need Microsoft's (or other vendor's) help to transfer their licenses (and would need to purchase new licenses if they aren't transferrable).  But I wouldn't do that anyway, as there are driver issues you need to deal with when you do that.  When I replace a PC, I set it up again from scratch.  If I had some user files I need to recover from the old one, I'd open the image backup with Acronis, and restore selected folders from it (and not attempt a bare metal restore).

 

 

Message 11 of 16
Sandshark
Sensei

Re: Backup permissions failure


@StephenB wrote:

 

The bare metal restores I've done are always to the same machine, so there are no license issues after the restore.  As far as Microsoft (and others) are concerned, it's the same install- they can't detect any difference, so there is no transfer needed.   

 

If I tried to do the restore to a different machine, I would need Microsoft's (or other vendor's) help to transfer their licenses (and would need to purchase new licenses if they aren't transferrable).  But I wouldn't do that anyway, as there are driver issues you need to deal with when you do that.  When I replace a PC, I set it up again from scratch.  If I had some user files I need to recover from the old one, I'd open the image backup with Acronis, and restore selected folders from it (and not attempt a bare metal restore).

 


I don't know how it works today, especially with a UEFI based system and Windows licensing "recognizing" the machine without even having to put in the license key again, but there used to be a (undisclosed, but figured out by some) "formula" that said the machine is different from the original one.  It used to use the motherboard DMI data, LAN adapter, hard drive, and I believe video adapter.  "Too much" of a change (again, undisclosed what's "too much"), and Microsoft's licenses declared they are on another machine and invalidated.  I had to replace a motherboard in one of my daughter's computers (a while back) and Windows declared it was unlicensed, and I didn't do a thing to the hard drive.  I had to move the flash chip from the old board to the new since I had no record of the DMI data.  But just a change of hard drive has never caused Microsoft licensing to not work. 

 

My comment regarding licensing is that Acronis has a capability (that I have not used) to transfer an image to a completely different machine, and it's supposed to update the drivers and make everything work on the new as it did on the old.  But I expect that would cause licensing issues.  For your use, I doubt you'd need to use that capability since you can extract just the files you want from a backup image. 

 

You can make it easier if you do both image backups (which might be less often) and file backups.  For example, I have my daughter's computer set to do a file backup to the NAS daily (using ZeroTier to access it remotely, as she's an adult living on her own) but only have the image capability manual, so she can do them when she visits or at least is prepared for the amount of time it takes to do an image backup over the internet.

Message 12 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

@StephenB @Sandshark 

 

First I must thank you for your continuing thoughtful comments - I much appreciate them.

 

When you talk about a "machine", I assume the definition includes the various components in the magic formula. I had to replace the motherboard on my stand-by computer a couple of years ago and ended up having to buy another Windows 7 package which I was fortunate to find at a local computer shop. I don't remember all the details now, but I do remember having a series of arguments with MS agents over whatever the issue was. It sounds like a future motherboard failure might drive me towards a "modern" OS that I neither need nor want and won't work with some of my legacy software.

 

If we talk about backing up personal files and system files separately, does Acronis allow a partial disc image, something along the lines of "backup C: except for user/*"?

 

It seems likely that Acronis True Image is still available back as far as 2017. Is there a particular version that would suit my needs?

 

Thanks again!

 

Message 13 of 16
StephenB
Guru

Re: Backup permissions failure


@Usernameinuse wrote:

 

If we talk about backing up personal files and system files separately, does Acronis allow a partial disc image, something along the lines of "backup C: except for user/*"?

 


Yes, you can specify an exclude list.

 


@Usernameinuse wrote:

 

It seems likely that Acronis True Image is still available back as far as 2017. Is there a particular version that would suit my needs?

 


Not sure what to tell you there, as it has worked for me well before that.  I used TrueImage 2009 on Windows 7, but I did need to update it when I upgraded to Windows 10.

Message 14 of 16
Sandshark
Sensei

Re: Backup permissions failure

If you want to have Acronis support as an option, get the latest.  Everything from 2017 and earlier is no longer supported, and another year's version will fall of the list each year when the new one is released.

Message 15 of 16
Usernameinuse
Aspirant

Re: Backup permissions failure

Thanks again for your comments. From what I've read about Acronis' support, it's close to useless. Perhaps it's OK for users with a high level of knowledge, but I suspect it would be a long and frustrating project for me. A 2009 version sounds muchy more appealing, although I think they will be long gone. I'll continue to cast around to see what I can find, and I'll see what else is available. Life is never simple.

 

Thanks again!

Message 16 of 16
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