Re: Devices connecting to distant router instead of nearby satellites

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-10

Our school is having an issue where devices in our mesh network are sometimes connecting to the distant Orbi router/base rather than the Orbi satellite that is right in the room with them a few feet away. Connecting to the distant router/base often provides very poor connection and super slow speed. We have tried moving the satellites around to different spots, but the intermittent issue continues to occur.

We have 1 router (RBR840) and 5 satellites (RBS850), one of which is connected as an access point. All of them are on Firmware version V4.6.14.5

What should we do? Is there a way we can we force devices to connect to the satellite near them rather than the base?

CrimpOn · ‎2024-09-10

@Zakariyya wrote:

We have 1 router (RBR840) and 5 satellites (RBS850), one of which is connected as an access point. All of them are on Firmware version V4.6.14.5

Please provide more detail about "one of which is connected as an access point".

I am not aware of alternate methods of connecting Orbi satellites.

Are the devices which connect to the router rather than the nearest satellite:

Mobile devices which are brought to the school, taken away, and then return again, or...
Fixed devices which remain connected to the network 24/7

Thanks

FURRYe38 · ‎2024-09-10

What is the size of the building? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router 📡 and satellite(s)🛰️? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR 📡 and RBS 🛰️ to begin with depending upon building materials when wired or wirelessly connected.

Also try turning down the power output of the RBRs wifi radios from 100% to 50% and see if this changes anything. Under Advanced Tab/Advanced Settings/Wireless Settings

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-11

Thank you for your willingness to help.

My apologies for not being clear. It is actually an additional router that has been set-up as an access point. More info on that here: https://kb.netgear.com/31218/How-do-I-configure-my-Orbi-router-to-act-as-an-access-point\

We did that because we had purchased two Orbi sets (router and 2 satellites) and used the extra router to extend the network.

In any case, that is not where the issue is. That extra access point is working fine and not interfering at all in the area where we have this issue. I have even disabled it several times, just to make sure it was not part of the problem.

Regarding the devices that are connecting to the router instead of the satellite nearby, they are Apple laptops that are essentially stationary throughout the day and then are taken home each night. I have monitored them closely and they connect to the satellite nearby most of the time, but probably 30% of the time they just switch over to the router even though they have a very weak and slow connection to it.

To provide additional detail, I have attached a map of our campus. The red dots are where the problems are. These locations are where devices are connecting to the router instead of the satellite that is less than 20 ft away from them. Everywhere else, coverage is good and the mesh system works great.

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-11

Thank you for your interest in helping.

Here is a map of our campus with locations and distances of everything. The red dots are the problem areas where staff are occasionally experiencing terrible internet. When I take a look at what they are connected to, it is the distant Router instead of the satellite that is just a few feet away. This happens about 30% of the time.

I can try turning down the power output of the Router. It is currently connecting to distant satellites nicely (125 ft line of sight) so I am a little worried that I will lose that distance, but I will see what happens.

But still, it seems like there should be a way to make sure the devices connect to the satellite nearby which have a nice powerful signal in that area. When they connect to the router, I can see that it has a super weak signal. Any other insights, tips, or advice would be appreciated.

FURRYe38 · ‎2024-09-11

So with users in Building A, those devices are connecting to the router in the main building?

Might also turn OFF SAT1 in the main building. Possible too much wifi signal here.

It's up to wifi devices to pick and chose where they connected too, even IF the signal maybe at a low level from the router.

90 and 125 feet is possibly too far in distances...

Let us know if setting 50% on the RBR changes anything.

CrimpOn · ‎2024-09-11

@Zakariyya wrote:

I can try turning down the power output of the Router. It is currently connecting to distant satellites nicely (125 ft line of sight) so I am a little worried that I will lose that distance, but I will see what happens.

The Transmit Power setting affects only User Facing WiFi radios. It does not affect the 5G WiFi connection between router and satellites. Reducing Transmit Power typically makes access points that are farther away less desirable to user devices.

How does the Orbi Attached Devices display report the satellite connections to the router (and the Daisy Chain) to Building E? Do they all show as "5G Good"? What does it report about those Apple laptop connections?

p.s. I had thought that Orbi routers (base units) only function when their WAN port is connected to the network with an Ethernet cable, no matter which 'mode' they are set to (router vs. access point). How is that spare router in Building B connected?

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-11

@FURRYe38 wrote:
So with users in Building A, those devices are connecting to the router in the main building?

Yes. It is really odd since the main building router is so far away, but their device is picking that super weak connection over the very fast and strong satellite one nearby.

@FURRYe38 wrote:
Might also turn OFF SAT1 in the main building. Possible too much wifi signal here.

Sat 1 is on the 1st floor and the router is on the 2nd floor with some thick walls in between. With Sat 1 off, we are left with very poor signal from the router on the 1st floor.

@FURRYe38 wrote:
90 and 125 feet is possibly too far in distances...

It is a long distance but the Orbi router is reaching the satellite successfully. Pretty impressive actually. The direct line-of -sight from the router to Sat 3 is helpful. The 90 ft from Sat 2 to Sat 4 has no issues.

@FURRYe38 wrote:
Let us know if setting 50% on the RBR changes anything.

Will do. I am no longer there for today, so I will try it out tomorrow or the next day.

Thanks for your help!

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-11

@CrimpOn wrote:
The Transmit Power setting affects only User Facing WiFi radios. It does not affect the 5G WiFi connection between router and satellites. Reducing Transmit Power typically makes access points that are farther away less desirable to user devices.

OK. Good to know. I'll see how it goes.

@CrimpOn wrote:
How does the Orbi Attached Devices display report the satellite connections to the router (and the Daisy Chain) to Building E? Do they all show as "5G Good"? What does it report about those Apple laptop connections?

I am no longer there today to be able to check on that display, but previously I remember the connections all showing as "Good." Here is what I see on the Orbi remote accessing remotely. All of them show as connected by 5 Ghz

@CrimpOn wrote:
p.s. I had thought that Orbi routers (base units) only function when their WAN port is connected to the network with an Ethernet cable, no matter which 'mode' they are set to (router vs. access point). How is that spare router in Building B connected?

It is connected via ethernet cable. Sorry I should have mentioned that. It is actually connected to the modem so it is currently separate from the Orbi mesh network. Coverage in that area is fine though.

I am off site for the rest of the day, but I will try some of this tomorrow or the next day and let you know.

Thanks for your help!

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-11

By the way, I also started a support case on this for about the 4th time. The support I have been given has been pretty lame, and usually says nothing I have not already tried.

This time they gave the below instructions. Does any of it sound like they are onto the solution?

==================================================

Going back, here are the troubleshooting steps/links to resolve your concern.

A. ORBI LOGIN. Access the web page of the router.
1.) Launch a web browser (Chrome. Safari, Firefox) from a computer or mobile device that is connected to the Orbi network.
2.) Enter either of these option below:
orbilogin.com
10.0.0.1
192.168.1.1
3.) The login window opens. Enter the router user name and password and click the login button.
Username: admin (lowercase - cannot be changed)
Password: (your created Orbi App password)
The BASIC Home page displays.

B. RESERVE IP: Go to ADVANCED > Setup > LAN Setup. Scroll down. In the Address Reservation section, click the Add button. Choose the IP address of the five satellites. Click Add it will go back to the main page. Hit Apply.

C. Go to ADVANCED > Advanced > Wireless Settings. Find Preamble Mode, change it to: Long Preamble. Hit Apply for both 2.4 and 5Ghz

D. Go to BASIC > Wireless. Change 2.4Ghz from Auto to channel 6 and 5Ghz to highest channel. Hit Apply.

E. To POWER CYCLE - Orbi Network
*Unplug both ends of the Ethernet cable from the modem to the router
1. Make sure power light is on
2. Unplug the power adapter on your modem for 1 minute.
3. Unplug the power adapter on your Orbi router and satellite or wall plug satellite for 1 minute.
4. Plug your modem back in and turn it on.
5. Wait for your modem to restart.
6. Plug your Orbi router and satellite or wall plug satellite in as well as the Ethernet cable.
Your Orbi devices take two minutes to restart.
Your network is power cycled.

F. To report issue - INSTABUG:
1. Shake the mobile device while using the app.
2. A popup will be shown - click the “Report a Problem” button in the popup.
3. Using your finger, try to highlight the problem area on the screen. A-line or a circle should be enough.
4. Press “Next” at the top-right corner.
5. Enter an email id. The email id does not have to be correct. It just needs to be a little unique so that we can identify the bug report as yours.
6. Type in the description of the problem.
Please add the following information :
* Model of smartphone used
* Android or iOS versions
*Case number: 48513066
7. Press the “Send” button in the top-right corner.
Or access: https://kb.netgear.com/000064839/How-do-I-submit-a-bug-report-or-logs-from-the-Nighthawk-or-Orbi-app

Observe connection for 24 hours. Can we have this info below,
a. Photo of the BASIC > Attached Devices page
b. Photo of the ADVANCED > Internet Port > click Show Statistics

CrimpOn · ‎2024-09-11

@Zakariyya wrote:

By the way, I also started a support case on this for about the 4th time. The support I have been given has been pretty lame, and usually says nothing I have not already tried.

This time they gave the below instructions. Does any of it sound like they are onto the solution?

It is common practice to reserve IP addresses for the satellites. Do not know if this essential, but it certainly cannot do any harm. (That's what I did.)

Have no idea how the WiFi Preamble setting could apply to this problem.

Since the Orbi product was introduced, customers have asked to be able to dictate which WiFi access point a specific device will use, and there is simply no mechanism to do so. I am not aware of any residential mesh WiFi system offering this capability. The way WiFi works, each device scans the available WiFi access points, selects the "best" connection, and associates with it. To facilitate the process, devices often save the SSID/password of WiFi networks they recognize and connect automatically. When I fly across country to visit relatives, my phone connects to WiFi the instant I walk in the door. And it connects automatically when I return home, go to Kaiser, visit Starbucks, etc.

This mechanism depends on the WiFi environment being operational when the device is powered up. Devices that are intended to be mobile (phones, tablets, laptops) are programmed to continue to survey the WiFi environment and there are IEEE standards for how to discover that a different WiFi access point would be a "better connection" and switch to it. Devices that are not mobile (televisions, cameras, speakers, printers, desktops, garage door openers, etc.) are sometimes programmed to get connected and then stop searching. This can cause issues when the device is already searching for a WiFi connection when the WiFi system powers up. (For example, after a power outage.) The router may begin broadcasting WiFi beacon frames (5-10 times/sec) before any of the satellites. A device may detect the router first, connect to it, and have stopped looking when a nearby satellite begins broadcasting and is "obviously" a better connection.

This problem does not appear to be that sort of situation.

The WiFi network is already completely operational when the Apple laptops arrive and are powered on. (or woken from 'sleep').
The laptops select the nearby satellite with a strong signal and connect.
After some period of time, the laptops abandon the stronger signal in favor of a much weaker signal from the router over 100 ft. away and performance becomes terrible.

This just seems nuts. My first thought is that (somehow) the laptops lost the strong satellite signal and switched to the router because it was the only signal available. But, if the satellite signal returns, then the laptops should switch back. (but they do not)

I would attempt to diagnose "what is going on" by capturing the WiFi management frames to look for evidence of the laptops changing their WiFi association. This is a highly technical process requiring equipment and software and investment of time.

A different experiment might be to set up a separate WiFi access point specifically for these laptops. For example, a TP-Link RE220 sells for under $20 on Amazon. Use section 6 of the user manual to set this up as a WiFi access point and connect it to Sat 3 with an Ethernet cable. Have it broadcast a 5G WiFi SSID that is different from the Orbi SSID. Connect the Apple laptops to this WiFi access point and "see what happens".

Total investment: under $30 (less if you already have an Ethernet cable), plus less than an hour of setup.

FURRYe38 · ‎2024-09-11

Are both RBRs, the main router RBR and the one in AP mode both model 840 or 850 models?

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-13

@FURRYe38 wrote:
Are both RBRs, the main router RBR and the one in AP mode both model 840 or 850 models?

Good question (good catch). Both routers are actually RBR840. All the satellites are RBS840. The set is RBK843S. I had put 853/850 by accident since that is the only one the "Associated products" field on here had.

Zakariyya · ‎2024-09-13

@CrimpOn wrote:
@Zakariyya wrote:
By the way, I also started a support case on this for about the 4th time. The support I have been given has been pretty lame, and usually says nothing I have not already tried.

This time they gave the below instructions. Does any of it sound like they are onto the solution?
It is common practice to reserve IP addresses for the satellites. Do not know if this essential, but it certainly cannot do any harm. (That's what I did.)
Have no idea how the WiFi Preamble setting could apply to this problem.

Since the Orbi product was introduced, customers have asked to be able to dictate which WiFi access point a specific device will use, and there is simply no mechanism to do so. I am not aware of any residential mesh WiFi system offering this capability. The way WiFi works, each device scans the available WiFi access points, selects the "best" connection, and associates with it. To facilitate the process, devices often save the SSID/password of WiFi networks they recognize and connect automatically. When I fly across country to visit relatives, my phone connects to WiFi the instant I walk in the door. And it connects automatically when I return home, go to Kaiser, visit Starbucks, etc.

This mechanism depends on the WiFi environment being operational when the device is powered up. Devices that are intended to be mobile (phones, tablets, laptops) are programmed to continue to survey the WiFi environment and there are IEEE standards for how to discover that a different WiFi access point would be a "better connection" and switch to it. Devices that are not mobile (televisions, cameras, speakers, printers, desktops, garage door openers, etc.) are sometimes programmed to get connected and then stop searching. This can cause issues when the device is already searching for a WiFi connection when the WiFi system powers up. (For example, after a power outage.) The router may begin broadcasting WiFi beacon frames (5-10 times/sec) before any of the satellites. A device may detect the router first, connect to it, and have stopped looking when a nearby satellite begins broadcasting and is "obviously" a better connection.

This problem does not appear to be that sort of situation.
The WiFi network is already completely operational when the Apple laptops arrive and are powered on. (or woken from 'sleep').
The laptops select the nearby satellite with a strong signal and connect.
After some period of time, the laptops abandon the stronger signal in favor of a much weaker signal from the router over 100 ft. away and performance becomes terrible.
This just seems nuts. My first thought is that (somehow) the laptops lost the strong satellite signal and switched to the router because it was the only signal available. But, if the satellite signal returns, then the laptops should switch back. (but they do not)

I would attempt to diagnose "what is going on" by capturing the WiFi management frames to look for evidence of the laptops changing their WiFi association. This is a highly technical process requiring equipment and software and investment of time.

A different experiment might be to set up a separate WiFi access point specifically for these laptops. For example, a TP-Link RE220 sells for under $20 on Amazon. Use section 6 of the user manual to set this up as a WiFi access point and connect it to Sat 3 with an Ethernet cable. Have it broadcast a 5G WiFi SSID that is different from the Orbi SSID. Connect the Apple laptops to this WiFi access point and "see what happens".

Total investment: under $30 (less if you already have an Ethernet cable), plus less than an hour of setup.

Wow. Thank you! You describing what we are seeing and experiencing exactly!

The Wifi Management frames thing seems out of my expertise range. I can try the separate access point thing. I have not yet been able to try reducing the router power, so we will try that first and see how it goes.

Thanks!