I think we would all like to know why this happens to some users and not others. I think we all care very much about the answer to that question. It's frustrating that Netgear seemingly doesn't care.
So apparently I can't ask a question in the community forums without being judged as a new user or suggesting that I'm affiliated with Netgear. I was a Ubiquiti user for years and decided to switch to Netgear and buy the AX6000 in January. I follow the forums to keep up on firmware release notes and chats. I noticed this thread and read most of it. I was simply asking why I'm not seeing this issue. I have 75 devices on my network and I would think that I would see this issue based on all of the chatter. Stating that all users running Orbi AX in router mode doesn't appear accurate as I'm not experiencing this issue. I was simply sharing my experience to see if there is any reason why a user would or wouldn't experience this issue.
I asked a similar question as well: what settings / setup does one need to have to experience this problem. Based on the amount of discussion, it seems like a few people may know, but I got no answer. The reason I asked is that if there is a way to make it happen for anyone all the time, then it might be a lot easier to get Netgear to see what the problem is and fix it. So it would really be great for the most knowlegeble person on this issue to tell us how to recreate the problem and how to recognize it beyond a doubt.
It is not a settings problem. The firmware uses software called dnsmasq and internally that is broken. That had been proven by going in to the router using Telnet and applying fixes manually. Netgear just did a bad job on the firmware.
You should experience this issue running this router in Router mode (not AP mode - as that doesnt use the DNS) and nothing else enabled, while visiting a good number of (random) websites.
User that say they are not experiencing this issue. Are either running this router not in Router mode (see comment from other user above) or are just unaware as depending on your browser and automatic reload happens. Which in my experience always works.
I installed peplink balance 20X router between my Orbi Router and my ISP Modem, switched the Orbi in AP mode and everything seemed to work for a while.
That was the best moment of my digital life since I bought the AX6000 Orbis.
Then after a day or two, I got the first symptoms of DNS problems : my Philips Hue Hub couldn't connect to the cloud. So my lightbulbs started working unreliably from HomeKit (that has an Homepod mini talking with Philips Cloud to work). Localy the Hue app worked fine.
I decided to reboot the peplink, rebooted the RBR850 then the 3 RBS850 an went to bed, hoping that the glitche was solved. The next morning all my Google Nest Hubs (I have 4 around the building) could connect to wifi but not to their server ... My Samsung TV Tizen based apps (Prime, Disney, NetFlix ...) could launch but none of them could stream a video. I could browse the web but not access the Samsung Store. My Philips Nest Hub could not connect to the Cloud. My PlayStation could download an update, browse the web but counldn't connect to the PlayStore. All my Apple TV, iMacs, MacBooks, HomePods worked fine however (more on this later).
I need to specify that most of my devices are using DNS servers assigned by DHCP at the exception of iPads and Macs that use nextDNS custom setup.
So it was a strange DNS related problem. Obvioulsy ome records were cached and some weren't. Some request went through, some did not get an answer. It seemed that the devices connected to the RBR850 worked fine but those connected to the RBS850 Satellites (by Ethernet) had partial resolution of DNS request (only those in the cache of the satellite ??). AND ALL THIS WITH THE ORBIS IN AP MODE !
I switched back the Orbi Router in Router mode, with the peplink also in router mode (double NAT) and after rebooting all my devices... everything seemed to work fine. Not a single problem with around 75 devices actives on the network.
I use nextDNS in the LAN settings of the peplink and it authenticate using the WAN IP. So I tought it maybe the point of failure. I switched everything (peplink and Orbi in router mode) to use my ISP automatically assigned DNS and I switched back the Orbi in AP mode. All the routing started to happen in the peplink and everything was working like magic. All the devices connected fine after waiting for the expiration of their DHCP settings or rebooting them, with their online services thanks to all DNS requests being solved by the peplink router.
I tought I had nailed the problem down to nextDNS.
The next morning all IoT devices (Google Nest Hub, Nanoleaf lights, Philips Hue Hub, online services on Samsung TV, PlayStations, etc.) were down again. And now I realized that some games/services couldn't connect on iMac (League of Legends, Discord, ...).
I have two teenager in the building, so you can imagine the trouble.
I switched back the Orbi in Router mode and I am still in this setup. Everything works and I have not experienced a single DNS related problem since. The Orbi Router is setup to receive its DNS server by DHCP. So DNS resolution are actually done by the peplink, not by my ISP. That may explain the reliability and fast response speed.
My diagnostic is that when the Orbis are in AP mode, they forward outgoing DNS requests to a Local DNS Proxy that screw up either in the Satellite or the Router, even if DHCP settings in the peplink assigns different DNS servers to the devices. For some reasons it interfere on request from most IoT devices but not from MacOS, iOS, tvOS, ...
I still think if someone (or some people) can get this into major computer media (Cnet, PCMag, DongKnows, etc.) or even YouTube (I'm not a YouTuber myself), and it gains traction, it will force Netgear's hand as it would start affecting sales. Everyone here has already put their money in the pit, so they (Netgear) already has you. If it starts to affect FUTURE sales, that's when they'll REALLY care.
Complaining on Amazon reviews (et al) really does nothing, as the complaints get drowned out by shear volume, and many consumers don't even read reviews - they go buy media reviews, what reviewers say on YouTube, etc.
I am in shock. I have spent the last 4 months trying to debug frequent DNS resolution problems, exactly as described through this thread. I never suspected that the Orbi firmware itself was responsible; I had been running in circles debugging everything else, even building a PiHole to bring DNS lookup under my control. When that didn't solve the problem, I realized that the problem had to be with my RBR850, and ended up finding this thread.
We both run businesses from home and have this problem multiple times per DAY. NetGear's defective product has literally cost us thousands and thousands of dollars in lost productivity.
pihole definitely solves this problem. Or replacing the builtin router dns with any other functional dns server.
I've added one myself and it is working 100% without any issues.
If it didn't work for you - you must've done something wrong.
And of course there are some that have not or had little experience with this in router mode. I've had my system since 2019 and only saw a few DNS problems mentioned in ths thread on prior v12 FW. Since installing v1 of the current release. Nothing, again, nothing in DNS has appeared since. Currently using ISP DNS, IPv6 6to4 DNS, Armor and Traffic Meter is disabled. DST enabled. Not here to argue either. Not everyone sees this issue.
That's bizarre, that doesn't correlate with my experience at all.
Router mode - constant DNS errors on all devices
AP mode - no issues
Again, for those that do, I recommend you contact NG support and let them know what your having problems with. All this needs to be addressed by NG support and users that are seeing this. Nothing we can do here in the forums. NG support and engineering doesn't watch the forums. So best way to make it known to to contact NG support directly.
Exactly, the problem is the '90 day support window'. While the warrenty is 1-2 years. After these 90 days there is no option in contacting support. Only option is to exchange this product over and over again. However, exchanging this product doesn't fix the actual problem. Which is software related (firmware).
Meanwhile Netgear is acting like nothing is wrong to those who actually manage to contact Netgear support. While it has been clearly proven. Again: for the Orbi AX Pro Netgear fixed this exact same problem a year ago. However, for its consumer grade product they simply don't care.
Exactly, the problem is the '90 day support window'. While the warrenty is 1-2 years. After these 90 days there is no option in contacting support. Only option is to exchange this product over and over again. However, exchanging this product doesn't fix the actual problem. Which is software related (firmware).
Meanwhile Netgear is acting like nothing is wrong to those who actually manage to contact Netgear support. While it has been clearly proven. Again: for the Orbi AX Pro Netgear fixed this exact same problem a year ago. However, for its consumer grade product they simply don't care.
You do realize how their support works? The first line support which you're getting by default is basically some random person from india who knows absolutely nothing about the product and is simply reading from script. Then if you get through that and get it escalated you get the 2nd line support - who actually knows something but that person is also not an engineer by any means and has no control or input into software development cycle. The level of knowledge is about right for a user who read the manual. I actually bit the bullet at some point and went through the first 2 and got the case escalated by the 2nd line - supposedly to the engineering. but then it went quiet, so I have no clue what happens after. I suspect that nothing really.
What I'm saying is that simply calling the support and talking to whoever picks the phone is not enough. None of the devs will ever see or hear about these calls.
Yeah I know. The issue needs to be escalated. However, the only ones that can do that / push for it are the ones who can actually call with Netgear support. When I came aware that I had this issue, for the first period I thought it must be some configuration or something else. By the time I realized it is the product/firmware itself I was too late. And the 90 day window passed. I think this is the case for many.
Read the story about the guy waisting 4 months trying to figure out why his DNS wouldn't always resolve. Pretty much most people would not think it is firmware related. Unless you come across a thread like this. Same for me. The only difference is now is that users can become aware much quicker because we have been keeping on posting.
The problem with the fixes (or non-fixes) is that they universally require at least some tech-savvy, which most (if not all) the posters here have. The larger overarching problem is that my mother does not.
She doesn't even have internet, but you get my point - the majority of users do not have the knowledge/ability to ascertain what's really going on (and likely why Orbi's controls are so dumbed down).
There is no doubt in my mind (at least what's still there) that the vast majority of people with this issue aren't even looking at this thread. They are calling their ISP, thinking something is just wrong with the internet or their computer/browser, etc.
The more people (read "average users") know about the problem, the louder the voice gets.
@tak1313 , this is definately my biggest frustration. They are marketing this as consumer grade, but the firmware is buggy as hell. This is bad enough, but then it is made much worse with very poor tech support with a very limited window in ordre to attempt to monetize a fix to a problem that shouldn't exist. I know enough about networking to be dangerous, but I'm by no means an expert. I'm just sick and tired of spending so much time trying to fix this issue regardless of my IT expertise. They either need to fix the issue, provide appropriate support, or stop marketing this thing as consumer-grade. I also think there is some shadiness behind what they are doing with Armour...but that's a whole other topic.
Consumer grade at pro prices. Orbi is one of the most expensive (if not THE most expensive) home mesh system on the market. Google, Eero, TP-Link, etc. all have mesh systems at WAY lower price points. Even Netgear has a cheaper mesh system (ala Nighthawk line).
Orbi is marketed as their concierge priced system, but it works like the corner dive drug motel (with similar service).
Forgot to mention - the difficulty is getting some kind of GOOD media attention because invariably, Netgear will be an advertiser on their site, and so they (media) have need to "keep the advertisers happy." I think DongKnows has a policy of telling it like it is, but I'm not sure.
At this point I truly believe that there are no good consumer grade routers. If you want a decent router these days you'll have to get a business grade cisco or something. Unless you want to bet on some random chinese crap off amazon and try to find the one that works for what you need it.
I work in IT my whole life and I can clearly see how over the years home-grade products are getting locked down and dumbed down while the actual technology in them getting more complex. The problem is that average users want a device that does everything but is controlled with 3 buttons via an app on their phone and manufacturers do exactly that. And some things just cannot be simplified to this extent. For example my previous orbi had more settings in it's interface than this current one. And a simple netgear router I had before that had even more settings.
And then the development and qa goes offshore to the cheapest countries where they can hire 5 engineers for the price of one. And this is the result of all that.
Noticed this as well. Not only with NG products, with other major router mfrs. They no longer do there own core development. 3rd parties are at play now. Notices that across the board, home product experiences have declinded over the past 10+ years. Sad to see this though.
At this point I truly believe that there are no good consumer grade routers. If you want a decent router these days you'll have to get a business grade cisco or something. Unless you want to bet on some random chinese crap off amazon and try to find the one that works for what you need it.
I work in IT my whole life and I can clearly see how over the years home-grade products are getting locked down and dumbed down while the actual technology in them getting more complex. The problem is that average users want a device that does everything but is controlled with 3 buttons via an app on their phone and manufacturers do exactly that. And some things just cannot be simplified to this extent. For example my previous orbi had more settings in it's interface than this current one. And a simple netgear router I had before that had even more settings.
And then the development and qa goes offshore to the cheapest countries where they can hire 5 engineers for the price of one. And this is the result of all that.
Sadly, with the exception of individuals on forums like this and other "tech" forums, the bottom line is that the vast majority of consumers demand the simplicity but combined with the complex capability. They WANT the set and forget - the "I don't want to think about how to make things work" (or even think at all) mentality of the modern consumer.
We, consumers at large, cut our own throats on these matters.
Everyone wants better, stronger, faster, but cheaper. This has given rise to offshoring for ever cheaper and cheaper cost of goods (and Walmart), but at the cost of ever decreasing quality.
Even houses in the U.S. have gotten bigger and better (as far as amenities), but the result is that oh so many houses are now built with shoddy materials by shoddy contractors using shoddy construction techniques.
I first saw this start back in 2012 when Smart Connect wifi feature made it's debut. Advanced features seen at the time on prior router products started disappearing. The home user just wants it simple so the router mfrs started to comply.
I am now using my old Asus N66U router (with custom firmware) as router and the Orbi AX as access point. Up until now I am not seeing any DNS errors (which is to be expected). But I did gain a lot more fine grained options in return. I am not sure how (and if) this set-up will impact the overall performance of my network. The wired devices are still connected to the primary Orbi AX router (= now access point).
I get all the issues with them having to "dummy-down" options and such to make it consumer-grade, but I think that isn't really a driver of the DNS issues in my mind. It's not like Netgear removed the ability to set your own DNS settings in the interface, it's the fact that this option doesn't work when you set it. Let's be honest, a stable DNS interface should be a pretty baseline expectation of any entry-level router.
I still think this has something to do with them wanting to sell their "Armor" service to get a monthly benefit on top of the large upfront investment. I also tend to think they are also using the Armor service to capture data on traffic usage for their own purposes or monetization. They fixed this same issue with their professional series which doesn't have the Armor service (I don't think it does at least), so I'm betting they are either unwilling or unable to fix it because of some impact back to how that "upgrade" functions.
Yeah, I guess it could have something to do with Armor or its implementation. In any case, the only thing we really do know is that the DNS resolving mechanism on the Orbi AX is defective. My best guess on this is that Netgear doesn't want to put resources/butget in to fixing the firmware anymore. The only focus seems to be easy to resolve security updates or indeed things like Armor. Which provide an additional income for Netgear. It is frustrating. But this has been the case since last year for this product and I don't think this will change.
And even it will change. What does it say about Netgear taking 1 year to resolve a problem like this.I think this is simply the business model. It happened to me years ago aswell with a Netgear router I had back then. I said never again Netgear. And guess what. Nothing changed.
Completely agree, very frustrating. More so, since some of the advertised features are still not available. With Circle parental controlls gone (unless you purchase the Circle device directly) and the Netgear Parental Controls not yet available. I noticed the website has been updated to not advertise this, but at the time of purchase, Parental controls was an advertised feature. Interesting to see how long it's taking for it to come to their flagship Orbi AX4200 and AX6000 mesh systems.
Completely agree, very frustrating. More so, since some of the advertised features are still not available. With Circle parental controlls gone (unless you purchase the Circle device directly) and the Netgear Parental Controls not yet available. I noticed the website has been updated to not advertise this, but at the time of purchase, Parental controls was an advertised feature. Interesting to see how long it's taking for it to come to their flagship Orbi AX4200 and AX6000 mesh systems.
