Re: Motorola or Netgear Modem WiFi Routers with the Orbi Mesh System

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-23

Looking to upgrade Xfinity modem WiFi Router and NightHawk R7000 Router. Will a newer Motorola or Netgear Modem WiFi Router work within an Orbi WiFi Mesh System? Or will the WiFi signals interfere with one or the other?

If I decide on the Orbi 850 or 960 series WiFi Mesh, would it be best to just buy a good modem to maximize the performance of the Orbi? Or buy an equally as good modem WiFi Router to increase coverage and meet the specs of the of the Orbi Mesh System?

Blue

michaelkenward · ‎2023-04-23

@Blueforester wrote:

Will a newer Motorola or Netgear Modem WiFi Router work within an Orbi WiFi Mesh System? Or will the WiFi signals interfere with one or the other?

Think of it the other way round, will the Orbi system work with the new modem/router?

Should work. If you mean can you connect the Orbi to another modem.

Why do you want to buy another modem/router? Experienced users would encourage you to go for a modem only device that you can put in front of your Orbi system. Then you have a much bigger choice of routers.

Putting a router in front of a router is asking for trouble.

Two routers on your network can cause headaches. For example, you can end up with local address problems. Among other things, the other router can misdirect addresses that the Netgear router usually handles, such as routerlogin.net or the usual IP address for a router, 192.168.1.1.

This explains some of the other drawbacks.

What is Double NAT? | Answer | NETGEAR Support

Unless you have specific reasons for using two routers – to create two separate networks for example – it is often easier to use just one router and then to set up the second router as a wifi access point. Netgear advises this, as does just about every site you will visit.

But that has its drawbacks:

Disabled Features on the Router when set to AP Mode | Answer | NETGEAR Support

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-23

Geezz, Just finished a detailed reply and after clicking on "Post" it came up something like could not authenicate?

Anyway, will try the Cliff Notes version. My apologies in advance. I may have not asked the question I was seeking an answer for correctly.

"Motorola or Netgear Modem WiFi ~~Routers~~ with the Orbi Mesh System"

Looking to upgrade from Xfinity modem/WiFi unit and Nighthawk R7000. Will skip details. Looking hard at Orbi 850 or 860 WiFi Mesh systems. Need a new modem that will insure I get the maximum performace from the Orbi Mesh system.

So question I meant to ask is since I'm replacing Xfinity modem/WiFi unit, is it possible or even available, a newer modem/Wifi unit that will work with the Orbi system? Thinking is, is this an opportunity to extend/improve coverage of the Orbi system with a modem/WiFi unit.

I ask this as the Xfinity WiFi and R7000 WiFi do not get long. But if there is a modem/WiFi unit avaiable that will work with the Orbi system, and improve WiFI service, I would like that option. If not, I just need a good perfomance modem upgrade. Open to recomendations.

Thanks.

Blue

michaelkenward · ‎2023-04-23

@Blueforester wrote:

Geezz, Just finished a detailed reply and after clicking on "Post" it came up something like could not authenicate?

Did this also mean that you could not read the reply to your first message?

That answers many of the questions in your latest message.

So question I meant to ask is since I'm replacing Xfinity modem/WiFi unit, is it possible or even available, a newer modem/Wifi unit that will work with the Orbi system?

Why do you want to modem/wifi unit?

See previous answer.

CrimpOn · ‎2023-04-23

As @michaelkenward mentioned, the recommended practice is to install two components:

A DOCSIS 3.1 modem that is compatible with Xfinity. This would be a good place to start:
https://www.xfinity.com/support/articles/list-of-approved-cable-modems
A major consideration is whether Xfinity also provides home telephone service.
Only DOCSIS 3.1 modems are capable of greater than gigabit connection speed, so it will "future proof" your system to install such a modem at this time.
This should not be a combination modem/router/WiFi system.
A WiFi router with the required capabilities. Every vendor has a bewildering array of products, with capabilities which vary across "price points". There are gaming routers which feaure extremely low latency and ability to enhance speed for gaming activities. There are systems which support WiFi6 devices and even WiFi6E devices. Netgear's 850 and 860 are residential class systems which feature "mesh" WiFi to cover larger spaces than a single unit can. Netgear also offers Orbi Pro systems with features targeted toward small businesses. (Asus, TP-Link, eero, Ubiquiti, etc. all have similar lines of products.)

So, a combination of Netgear products might include one of these modems:

https://www.netgear.com/home/wifi/modems/listing-filter/xfinity-1/ , such as the "top of the line" CM2000, plus an 850 or 860 package consisting of one base unit (router) plus enough satellites to create the desired coverage. (Packages have a "K" in the part number, such as RBK852, RBK863 or RBK864, etc.)

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-23

Did this also mean that you could not read the reply to your first message?

No, I entered a detailed reply to last reply and it blew away. So Entered a shorter version.

Why do you want to modem/wifi unit?

I entered the answer to this in the orginal reply that blew away.

I've swappped Xfinty modems three time in the last year. I no longer want to pay for renting a 2018 refurb model XB6 that was suppose to be the fix. Limited to two ethernet ports. Two months records of speed test data that shows my service is extremely inconsistent. Of course, everything is good on Xfinity's side. Xfinity continues to reactivate their WiFi on their modem after repeated request to turn off and keep it off.

The reason I have the Nighthawk R7000 is because the Xfinity Wifi only covers around 50% of my house. I get great service with the R7000 inside and outside of my house with the Xfinity WiFi disabled. Everything we have is connected to the R7000. We do not use the Xfinity WiFi.

I finallly got a tech to come out several years ago so I could show him that when their Xfinity WiFi was turned on it was interferring with the WIFi signal from my R7000 . Which I had to install because their WiFi so poor. Over last several years I could tell when Xfinity turned their WiFi back on by the service on my devices. So I have been having to login into the Xfinity modem and turn it back off. And not to mention there is a "Hidden" WiFi signal I cannot access and turn off. I've got a five bar "Hidden" Wifi network in my house. It turns on and off when I power on and off the Xfinity XB6. I do not want or need WiFi frequencies I do not use beaming next to my router that I rely on for everything we use it for.

So for the cost of upgrading my WiFi system to the level of an Orbi Mesh System I want to include upgrading the modem to 2023 technolgy that will meet or exceed the performance abilities of the Orbi System. As The Orbi system is only going to be as good as the modem it's connected to.

Just realized I didn't answer your question. Initally thought you asked why I wanted to replace my current Xfinity modem/WiFi unit. Well, see above.

Afraid going to loose this if I go back to my previous post. But, I thought I mentioned that if there is a modem/WiFi unit, that would work with the Orbi system, I would be interested in one if it would would add to and/or increase WiFi coverage.

Versus just just purchasing a modem.

Thanks trying to keep me straight and on point with this

Blue

michaelkenward · ‎2023-04-24

@Blueforester wrote:
I get great service with the R7000 inside and outside of my house with the Xfinity WiFi disabled. Everything we have is connected to the R7000. We do not use the Xfinity WiFi.

That arrangement is a recipe for problems. Turning off the wifi does not disable the router bit. Putting a modem/router in front of the R7000 means that you have two routers on your network.

Replacing the modem/router with a modem-only device removes that clash.

You have not said what the model is of your modem/router, but I find this bit hard to believe.

Over last several years I could tell when Xfinity turned their WiFi back on by the service on my devices. So I have been having to login into the Xfinity modem and turn it back off. And not to mention there is a "Hidden" WiFi signal I cannot access and turn off.

How can Xfinity turn the wifi on by remote control? I suspect something else is happening, including the possible side effects of running two routers on the network.

What is Double NAT? | Answer | NETGEAR Support

As @CrimpOn says, replacing the Xfinity device with your own modem and using that with one of the Orbi systems you mentioned would be a good start. You could hang on to the R7000 and use it as a wireless access point. It won't be a part of the Orbi's Mesh network but it could fill any local WiFi gaps.

You could even start by simply replacing the Xfinity modem/router with a modem. Your R7000 already delivers the WiFi you need. Why add anything else?

Afraid going to loose this if I go back to my previous post.

Here's a tip for when that happens.

Go back to the message that you are replying to. Hit Reply again. Then look at the top of the empty text space and look for a message that asks if you want to reload your saved message.

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-24

Thanks for the great feedback. I probably get the nomenclatures wrong as I’m not immersed in the IT world.

"That arrangement is a recipe for problems. Turning off the wifi does not disable the router bit. Putting a modem/router in front of the R7000 means that you have two routers on your network."

I cannot disagree. But it this setup does work. I was one of the first customers online when Comcast ran lines where I live. 15 years ago? I forget the Arris model I had. But it was what I call a modem. It had four ethernet ports. 2.4G Wifi at that time.

"Replacing the modem/router with a modem-only device removes that clash.:"

Understand now. However, the answer I was looking for is there a modem/WiFi that will work with Orbi System. The thought is I'm replacing modem. If I can increase and or improve WiFi coverage with a “WiFi” modem I would look to install one at this time.

" You have not said what the model is of your modem/router, but I find this bit hard to believe."

Mentionedlast reply:

"pay for renting a 2018 refurb model XB6" –

I've had various Xfinity models in the last several years. This latest unit was Xfinity's answer to the poor service I have been getting. I call it a WiFi modem router. It only has two ethernet ports and has 2.4 and 5g Wifi service.

"How can Xfinity turn the wifi on by remote control? I suspect something else is happening, including the possible side effects of running two routers on the network.".

Yes, everyone who has Xfinity service and rents "Their" modem which contributes to strengthening Xfinity's WiFi service for all of Xfinity’s customers. Their modems have 2 bands dedicated for the residential customer that the customer can password control. I have a password and can use the 2.4 and 5G Xfinity WiFi. But everything in my house is using my R7000 WiFi. I have been on the phone with tech support and watched as they turned off their two bands. And the lights on the modem would go out and the bands would disappear from my phone. Weeks or maybe a month later I could tell my service would not be good and there would be additional WiFi signals on say my phone. I'd go in my computer room and the the 2.4 and 5g lights on the modem would be back on. I called them first several time this happened. But after that I would log into the modem and disable myself.

Xfinity has extensive monitoring systems to monitor quality and strength their service throughout their service areas. And part of what they do is monitor their modems for issues to identify outages. And they look for trends in data volume, quality, or bottle necks to make adjustments to prevent issues with customer service. And like any hardware running software they make tweaks to their software to fix issues, bugs etc. They push these updates out to "their" modems as needed to keep their service up and running as smoothly as possible to maximize customer service. When they push these updates out it resets their modems default “WiFI" settings which is on. So yes, they can control the WiFi settings on "Their" modems.

In addition to the two WiFi customer bands as I mentioned earlier, there is a "Hidden" Wi-Fi signal that is not accessible when you log into their modem. This a band is in every Xfinity modem and transmits/ receives WiFi signals to enhance and fill in their service coverage to improve customer’s access and service to the internet, WiFi calls, etc. I can see it on all my devices in my house. My house is on large estate lots and thus not close enough to pick up 5bar signals from neighbors. The signal, named "Hidden", turns off and on when I power up and shut down my Xfinity modem. Through numerous service calls over the years I have learned this information from Xfinity service techs.

"As @CrimpOn says, replacing the Xfinity device with your own modem and using that with one of the Orbi systems you mentioned would be a good start. You could hang on to the R7000 and use it as a wireless access point. It won't be a part of the Orbi's Mesh network but it could fill any local WiFi gaps."

That’s the information I need. Although, still curious if there is a newer modem with just "WiFi". If so, would it improve coverage and service. And work with the Orbi WiFi system versus creating some interference issues.

“You could even start by simply replacing the Xfinity modem/router with a modem. Your R7000 already delivers the WiFi you need. Why add anything else?"

My wife is still working from home since the start of Covid. She is in video meetings, conference calls pretty much all day. I just retired this past November. But prior to that she was constantly complaining she would lose connection during important meetings and or could not connect to meetings. And she had to switch to her company mobile hotspot as needed. Now that I'm retired I'm at home doing miscellaneous work during the day and now see the issues. She kicks me off my computer when she is going into an important meeting. And we now have more devices connected at various times of the day between multiple TVs, computers, streaming movies, phones, tablets etc. I’ve checked and at times there are as many as 20 devices connected on WiFi at one time.

And we are paying for the extra Turbo Boost data plan. And I recently have done extensive monitoring of our service starting in February and going through March. Testing during work hours, evenings, nights, weekends. Tested using Xfinity’s speed test as that is the only one they go by. And compared their test at each test using High Speed Internet’s test. As that is what the company I worked for used.

I have all the data an Excel spreadsheet. And have multiple Pivot Tables to compare and contrast everything from time of day, workday, weekends etc. And also when I tested connected directly to the modem with nothing else connected. Or, if I tested from 5G WiFi using my pretty slick Alienware gaming laptop. And basically, it comes down to I do receive the 400 Gbs service I pay for. But, not all the time. It fluctuates widely. And the service is extremely inconsistent to the point I cannot identify any trends in the service I’m getting. And when Xfinity checks my service on their end, not from their modem, they always say everything is good and I’m getting an excellent signal. I tell them if they check it in 10 minutes to an hour the service will not be the same.

Sorry for dragging this out. But bottom line is I want Xfinity’s modem out of my house and want to upgrade to bring WiFi service up to 2023 technology and future as we are demanding more from our the internet and WiFi service at my house than we were 15 years ago.

Thanks for all the great responses!

Blue

FURRYe38 · ‎2023-04-25

I would go with NG modem for any router. They work well. Just as long as the ISP service up to the modem is good. Any modem depends on good working signals from the ISP. Something the ISP is responsible for.

Good Luck.

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-25

Thanks FURRYe38 for the NG suggestion. I have noticed NG comes up frequently when researching. Looking at your setup it appears you have figureed something out. I'm curious how you fit your system in your house? Well, you probably have a much bigger house than I. Or is it used for your business?

Thanks again.

Blue

FURRYe38 · ‎2023-04-25

Ya for home. 5000sq ft home 3 levels including basement. I can get way with running two systems in the home, one for the main home service and a 2nd for testing and such so I don't bother others. When I do this, I keep the power on both to a minimum and use far apart channels. Works well.

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-25

Sorry for lengthy post. Being retireed now and medically on light duty this week I got more time to think and type lengthy post. I'll work on being more concise!

Posted by FURRYe38: "as long as the ISP service up to the modem is good. Any modem depends on good working signals from the ISP. Something the ISP is responsible for."

Agree. When I contact Xfinity, they check my signal from their service center thirty-five miles away. They find no signal issues on their end. But what matters is what the customer is getting on location at their modem. Using Xfinity’s app, and other online speed check apps, I can check that. I call when I am getting around 100 Mbs But then they want me to pay to have tech come out because every looks good on their end. After doing that several times only to get told they cannot find any issues I gave up on that. It is a farce.

I have around 150 speed tests in the test I mentioned above. I documented three variables and found the average Xfinity test compared to High Speed Internet's test to be:

Test Xfinity (avg)

Download: 59 Mbs

Upload: 0.6 Mbs

Latenacy: -3.4 ms

My thought is being as tight as the Upload and Latency average are it validates the download. As you cannot agree that two variables that are reasonably close are valid comparisons but rule out the third as invalid. And it showed in nearly every test Xfinity’s download was consistently higher than the High-Speed Internet’s download speed. And as mentioned above the speed test showed Xfinity’s service highly variable. Xfinity's test shows a StdDev of 128 Mbs.

I got off tangent here. What I intended to ask is if anyone knows of a signal data logger for like a hobbist? I know they make commercial ones. But I am not interested in investing in one like that. But I would like to find one that I could install that I could monitor and document the service, or lack of service, I am currently getting from Xfinity. As on Average I am not getting the service that I pay for monthly.

I had planned to put may data and analysis in a report and make an appointment down at Xfinity’s main office and have a discussion. Adjust my bill, and back pay a reasonably amount, for the service I had been and currently getting. Or update or increase my service data plan to the rate I'm have been paying. I have not been able to have this conversation yet as serval things have come up. And because internet service as actually improved over last serval weeks.

Why? I am not 100% sure why. But I find it curious though. Like I mentioned earlier Xfinity's monitoring systems monitor their customer modems. I have come to believe that their modems throw up a red flag when you run a speed test on your Xfinity modem. When I run tests regularly, I get replies/inquiries about my service. Or what led me to run the test and if the issue was resolved. I would receive emails from Xfinity within hours inquiry about my service and if I need any additional support. After running the test daily for I guess a month I started receiving emails for discounted offers to upgrade my service and receive knew equipment.

After about a month or so, driving out heading to town there were pole service trucks with a big "X" on the side regularly working on the lines. This went on for serval weeks. Then one afternoon looked out my front window and there was a service truck up on the pole on the road at my driveway. So, I went out and walked up to the road and talked with the service tech when he came down. And he basically said they had been chasing some "Gremlins" in this area for the last several weeks. And that they thought they had finally got all the issues worked out and that he was headed back to the shop. He said he was on the interstate heading back when another issue showed up and he was turned around to go back and check. Curious, he came to the service point on the pole at my drive.

And strangely enough, it was during this time I started receiving much better signal and more consistently. I started getting around 470 Mbs on good days. And so I stopped my daily testing and data recording.

It goes back to The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease!

But I'm still interested in a signal recording device to monitor to insure I'm getting what I pay for. There is no telling how long I was receiving poor service. It was a while as I heard about it every day when I got home from work. As I am the default "System Administrator” at our house.

Blue

FURRYe38 · ‎2023-04-25

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?
Be sure your using a good quality LAN cable between the modem and router. CAT6 is recommended.

CrimpOn · ‎2023-04-25

@Blueforester wrote:

I'm still interested in a signal recording device to monitor to insure I'm getting what I pay for. There is no telling how long I was receiving poor service.

This calls out for an internet search. The first product I found is a command line version of Ookla Speed Test that is available for Linux, Mac, Windows https://www.speedtest.net/apps/cli Download the zip file. Extract the executable to a folder and run the program from a command line to display the program options, i.e. in Windows:

speedtest.exe -help

After verifying that it does what you want, create a batch file and some sort of scheduling mechanism to run it as often as desired. For example:

@echo off
Echo Speed Test %DATE% %TIME% >>speedrecord.csv
speedtest.exe -fcsv --progress=no >>speedrecord.csv

Then schedule this batch file to run as often as desired. (Hourly?) This will create a csv file with one line for each test that looks like this:

"Nitel - Los Angeles, CA","12191","12.8024","2.8445","0","46223471","1446433","394807566","9823388","https://www.speedtest.net/result/c/646a1005-b522-416a-83ef-ca6602fb043b","1","231.011","70.9965","17.038","455.572","25.005","10.7329","12.644","305.68","10.162","16.987"

Open the csv file with Microsoft Excel or whatever program you like.

Mac and Linux have similar ways to run a program on a schedule and save the results.

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-25

My Xfinity modem is an Arris XB6. Digging into mine it is a 2018 model refurb. Gave it to me taped to a piece of cardboard. Most reviews I found after I got it were not great . Such as:

Cons

Features Intel Puma 7 (bad chipset)
Single heat dissipation vent
Limited coverage area
Expensive

Yeah, CAT6 is better cable. But it was not around when I built my house. And when I added a media room sometime later in the unfunished upstairs space. So I ran ran CAT5 through out. And still have plenty left. In fact I have about a 50' piece laying in the floor by my feet with my crimping tool bag. I have been running it directly to the modem in what is now my wife's offce to the great so I could get better service and run test off the modem. Dang modem only has two ethnet ports. I have been getting some intermittent errors with internet connection. Last several days I had planned to test the cable to see if that was the errors. And probaly go ahead and replce the connectors just to be sure.

I have not given our internet upgrade project to the boss yet. But I plan to include the cost to replace all the CAT5 to CAT6 or CAT6e. She is all about the upgrade because it is interferring with her job. So going make sure she gets the best!

Blue

CrimpOn · ‎2023-04-25

Oh, gosh. There are so many fun things on the internet. Such as https://testmy.net

This requires that a web browser window remain open. I've now got it running using Edge (minimized) and will check it again in 5-6 hours.

Who knows? There may be even more useful tools to be found!

Looking more closely at Ookla command line SpeedTest, it's clear that it generates far too much detail to be practical and a better solution would be to write an application program to extract just a few key statistics from the json output.

Blueforester · ‎2023-04-25

"This calls out for an internet search. The first product I found is a command line version of Ookla Speed Test that is available for Linux, Mac, Windows https://www.speedtest.net/apps/cli Download the zip file. Extract the executable to a folder and run the program from a command line to display the program options, i.e. in Windows:

speedtest.exe -help"

That looks like one, of many, speed test I evaluated. However, writing scripts to have it run and record on a set time is above my System Administrator skill level.

Researching speed test, I found what many others had aleardy posted on various sites. That is the Ookla speed test blows away all other speed test by a good margin. Even compared agianst Xfinity's speed test. Many speculated that they are tied in with one or more ISPs or someone else. As there data ouput stands out when compared to most all other speed test applications.

Blue