Re: Orbi RBK753 has chucked my Airplay speakers off the network after firmware update

psheld · ‎2022-03-19

Orbi AX4200 WiFi 6 High-Performance Router (RBR750).

(It doesn't fill me with confidence that this community forum doesn't have my Orbi model available in the selection field above. But heh ho.)

I installed the router and two satellites in December 2021, and added two pairs of KEF speakers to the network for use via Airplay. Cool.

I noticed the prompt recently to upgrade the firmware on the two satellites.

Satellite 1 was on 3.2.16.22 and I was advised to update to 4.6.5.14.
Satellite 2 was on 4.6.3.16 and I was advised to update to 4.6.5.14

(The router was already on 4.6.5.14)

It was a painful process, but eventually I managed it, even though the router now shows me:

How a lower numbered firmware can be presented here as an upgrade I have no idea, but that's not why I posting. I'm posting because I soon discovered that my two pairs of KEF speakers were no longer on the network. I can only conclude that the firmware upgrade had somehow booted them off the network. And more to the point, I have found it impossible to get them back on the network.

Attempting to connect them "the Airplay way" suggests every wifi SSID in the neighbourhood except my Orbi network. And connecting them the KEF app way balks I guess for much the same reason. The app tells me the speakers receive the network credentials, but then the speakers never appear on the network.

Any and all ideas welcome. Otherwise, I guess I will have to send the Orbi back under warranty and find another solution. Thanks in advance.

psheld · ‎2022-03-23

The speakers connected to the AVM once it was changed to the same SSID and password as the Orbi, and then would not connect to the Orbi. Nice try 🙂

So I printed off every single setting and did a full factory reset of the Orbi network. I then reconfigured it just as I had done before, and found myself saying "A-HA!"

Now I don't know exactly when I changed Orbi to WPA3? Was it a day before or after the firmware update? Not more than that surely. Seemed harmless, or the right thing to do in fact, but could this be the culprit rather than the firmware update?

So I got everything back exactly as before but with WPA2, crossed my fingers, and before I went to check the speakers I heard their little chime indicated wi-fi connection was established! 🎉

I went to check KEF.com and found they do not recommend open networks or WEP (no surprise there!) And they add: "The WPA2 security protocol is recommended." Note, KEF does not say: "The speakers are not compatible with more recent security protocols such as the three years old WPA3."

But if the effect is indeed related to the cause here, it would seem that KEF should indeed include that sentence in its documentation, or even better, get their kit compatible with WPA3. I will point them to this thread.

Thanks @Mikey94025 and thank you @FURRYe38, and thank you [at]netgear on Twitter.

View solution in original post

psheld · ‎2022-03-19

It is the Orbi RBR750 (not RBK750 per my title here). Unfortunately, this community forum appears to be about two decades old and doesn't allow me to edit my original post in any way that I can see.

FURRYe38 · ‎2022-03-19

What is the Mfr and model# of the Internet Service Providers modem/ONT the NG router is connected too?

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router and 📡 satellite(s)? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR and RBS📡 to begin with depending upon building materials when wirelessly connected.
https://kb.netgear.com/31029/Where-should-I-place-my-Orbi-satellite 📡

What channels are you using? Auto? Try Auto and 48 on 5Ghz. Or try setting manual channel 1, 6 or 11 on 2.4Ghz and 40 to 48 channel on 5Ghz.
Any Wifi Neighbors near by? If so, how many?

Has a factory reset and setup from scratch been performed since last update?

Mikey94025 · ‎2022-03-19

@psheld wrote:

Attempting to connect them "the Airplay way" suggests every wifi SSID in the neighbourhood except my Orbi network. And connecting them the KEF app way balks I guess for much the same reason. The app tells me the speakers receive the network credentials, but then the speakers never appear on the network.

Older 2.4hz wireless clients sometimes do better with Orbi settings changes. Try setting your CTS/RTS Threshold to 2347 to maximize compatibility:

Go to the web admin portal at http://orbilogin.com/
Click to the Advanced tab, Advanced left menu, Wireless Settings
Set CTS/RTS Threshold to 2347 for both 2.4hz and 5Ghz networks
Press Apply

See if that helps. If problems still persist, next try disabling AX mode for the 2.4Ghz band:

Go to http://orbilogin.com/
Click to the Advanced tab, Setup left menu, Wireless Setup
Uncheck "Enable 2.4G" under the top Enable AX section
Press Apply

psheld · ‎2022-03-20

Hi @FURRYe38 , thanks for all your questions. I can see why you're listed here as a superuser guru 🚀 😀

The modem is a AVM FRITZ!Box 7590. The Orbi router and two satellites cover 2200 sq ft over four floors. Th e house is perfectly anti-wifi!! ... steel reinforced concrete walls and floors ... hence using something like Orbi.

The Orbi router and satellites are well separated, with catV backhaul from the satellites to the router. The channels are currently auto and 40. I could try 48 but I'm not sure that will make the difference?

My phone and computer can usually see between one and two dozen neighbouring SSIDs.

I have not done a factory reset after the satellite firmware update. Is this normal? Or are you proposing that given my problem here?

Thanks again for helping here. Appreciated.

psheld · ‎2022-03-20

Thanks @Mikey94025 for your reply here.

Before giving the CTS/RTS tweak a go, I'd like to ask a question about your reply, specifically where you write "Older 2.4 wireless clients ..."

Both pairs of speakers were purchased in 2021. Of course, I cannot vouch for what generation of chip or protocols KEF may have seen fit to use, but I'm fairly certain, given that they appear to know their stuff and win lots of awards, that they would not qualify as "older ... clients".

Does this mean your CTS/RTS tweak is less valid in this particular instance? I'm also wondering if the CTS/RTS would influence the speakers being able to join the network in the first place, or only their subsequent performance? And I guess that last question goes for AX too?

Mikey94025 · ‎2022-03-20

@psheld wrote:
Does this mean your CTS/RTS tweak is less valid in this particular instance? I'm also wondering if the CTS/RTS would influence the speakers being able to join the network in the first place, or only their subsequent performance? And I guess that last question goes for AX too?

These are common tactics we use to improve compatibility with 2.4Ghz clients, many of which predated the AX mode (which was not that long ago) It's safe and easy to try it since you can simply undo it if you see no improvement.

psheld · ‎2022-03-20

Tried channel 48 but to no avail unfortunately.

psheld · ‎2022-03-21

Hi @Mikey94025

I disable AX for both 2.4 and 5, but no improvement. Same failure for both the AirPlay way and the KEF app way.

I found the RTS / CTS page via the menu as you describe, but I cannot see a way to change the associated numbers. See the screenshot here.

(Nope, this old forum software isn’t responding when I press “Browse files to upload”. What a joyful UX this is!!)

Thanks again for trying to find a solution here.

psheld · ‎2022-03-22

On a big screen now so able to upload that screenshot.

psheld · ‎2022-03-22

Reading other fora about this problem, I'm discerning that I wouldn't have this problem with the Linksys Velop Multiroom Intelligent Mesh Wi-Fi System, Tri-Band, 3-Pack.

I understand this is the Linksys equivalent to my current Orbi network, but importantly comes with a "Works with Apple Homekit" assertion, which many associate with it being fully accommodating of Apple AirPlay.

It appears Netgear has never made this compatibility claim for Orbi, although equally (with my potentially imminent warranty return of the Orbi system in mind) neither does Netgear point out incompatibility with AirPlay.

With family members visiting this coming weekend for the first time since the pandemic began, it's going to be very frustrating to have our beautiful KEF speakers sitting their completely silent. Grrrr.

Any and all ideas still very welcome. Thanks!

Mikey94025 · ‎2022-03-22

@psheld wrote:
I found the RTS / CTS page via the menu as you describe, but I cannot see a way to change the associated numbers. See the screenshot here.

You can change the RTS/CTS numbers by typing in the text box to the right of the screenshot you posted and then press the Apply button at the very top. Try using a desktop browser with orbilogin.com or put your phone in landscape mode.

psheld · ‎2022-03-23

Thanks @Mikey94025. It seems my mobile browser didn't offer me a horizontal scrollbar 😂

Saying that, you'd think in this day and age that the webpage served by the router would be responsive. But let's get back to fixing my faulty Orbi ...

I applied the change of CTS/RTS from 64 to 2347 as you can see here:

Unfortunately, this has made no difference. I still cannot rejoin my speakers to the network the AirPlay way or the KEF way ☹️

Still, I appear to have attracted Netgear's attention via Twitter, so hopefully we'll have their input here soon enough. I'm out of ideas (not that I had many to begin with! 😆) If neither Netgear nor the community here can find a fix this week, I'm returning the system under warranty as not fit for purpose. Fingers crossed it won't come to that.

Thanks again, Philip.

FURRYe38 · ‎2022-03-23

You don't happen to have a separate or prior wifi router hanging around do you?

psheld · ‎2022-03-23

Just learned that Orbi appears to have booted my printer off the network too. Joy.

psheld · ‎2022-03-23

The AVM modem I listed earlier in this thread is also a wifi router.

I suspect @FURRYe38 that you may want me to try adding the speakers to it, and I can confirm already that this works no problem with both methods — the AirPlay way and the KEF app way.

To state the obvious, but for the record, that's not an ongoing / workable solution here because the speakers are not normally in range of the AVM, hence our investment in the Orbi. And our smartphones (through which we interact with the speakers) are on the Orbi network.

FURRYe38 · ‎2022-03-23

Can you set up the other wifi router for same SSID name and password that's on the Orbi system, long enough to get the speaker devices connected to it. Once the speakers are fully connected, turn OFF the 2nd router and see if the speakers migrated and connect to the Orbi wifi...

psheld · ‎2022-03-23

Thanks @FURRYe38. I will try it this evening, but I don't think it will work.

The KEF app clearly states that the speakers get the SSID and password, it's just the Orbi network does not then allow them to join. So I'm not sure why the speakers successfully connecting to the AVM increases the chances of them connecting to the Orbi network.

Attempting to connect the speakers the AirPlay way shows the AVM as an available network to join the speakers to, but has never shown the Orbi network since the firmware upgrade. So again, I see no reason why this will change with the process you recommend.

But I'll give it a go in the spirit of trying anything!!

(By the way, I use a well-known password manager, so there's no fear I'm mistyping!)

FURRYe38 · ‎2022-03-23

What I'm hoping is that if the devices will connect to a working wifi signal using same SSID name and PW long enough to get them connected, they may auto connect to the Orbi network after you turn off the 2nd router.

Also have you reviewed this as well? Maybe give this a try:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-WiFi-6-AX-and-WiFi-6E-AXE/New-RBR750-RBS750-Firmware-Version-v...

psheld · ‎2022-03-23