Re: Wired backhaul worth it for an AX6000 system?

VerneArase · ‎2021-03-28

*Sigh* ... I really have an RBK853 (AX6000) system, even though that's not an option in the forums even now.

I'm thinking of wiring my house for ethernet and I've secured all the cable and equipment needed except for the ethernet switch.

I'm thinking of using a 2x10gb 8x1gb unmanaged switch to connect a Synology 1817+ in the family room downstairs to an iMac 5K w/10gb in my office, 1GB backhaul on the Orbis, and 1GB run up to various parts of the house with the switch living in the utility room downstairs.

The question is: is it worthwhile running the 1GB backhaul on the Orbis replacing a 5ghz AX6000 connection? Now that I've got gigabit service this is beginning to look more worthwhile.

If you're running an ethernet backhaul, what speed difference have you experienced?

I'm a tad apprehensive as I've never run cable through the house before, and my most optimistic plan is to use old existing telephone wire to pull Cat6 and new telephone wire through the house with the hope that when the house was originally wired they didn't wrap it around a nail along the way.

*Really* hoping I don't have to run cable up to the attic and drop cable down from up there.

Any advise on this project would be appreciated.

DatabaseJase · ‎2021-03-28

This is a great question and I've fallen into the trap of getting obsessed with how much of our core internet speed (currently a 300Mbps Fibre connection) is distributed around the home. Through general testing I've found that wired devices to the RBR850 get the full 300Mbps and wireless devices connected to the RBR850 get around 250Mbps (at these speeds Wifi6 isn't much of a benefit). The RBS850 gives wired devices about 250Mbps and wireless devices about 200Mbps (these vary by device type; PC, iPad, iPhone, etc.).

I have tested with ethernet backhaul and that makes the RBS850 show similar speeds to devices as if they were connected to the RBR850 directly (wired and wireless). Depending on needs using wireless backhaul is sufficient so long as the signal/distance between the router and the satellite is strong/not too far.

What I finally made myself think about is what benefit is there of getting the optimum speeds at the RBS850? A 4K video stream needs about a 50Mbps so is that my baseline? Downloading games/updates that run into many GBs then speed optimisation is important but does a few extra minutes waiting for a download to finish mean running ethernet backhaul is worth it?

I think it really comes down to what you want. I can relate to the frustration that comes when paying for a gigabit service and seeing an Orbi satellite only giving 400-500Mbps over wireless backhaul but ask yourself why you need the full gigabit speeds distributed everywhere. Remember that Orbi AX system has 2400Mbps wireless backhaul with a good signal between router and satellite,

Now if you're satellite is only giving 50-100Mbps, or even less, then running ethernet backhaul would be worthwhile but before going to that trouble see if you can move them closer.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-03-29

Wired connections tent to have been performance over wireless as there isn't much variables with wired connections vs wireless.

@VerneArase wrote:
*Sigh* ... I really have an RBK853 (AX6000) system, even though that's not an option in the forums even now.

I'm thinking of wiring my house for ethernet and I've secured all the cable and equipment needed except for the ethernet switch.

I'm thinking of using a 2x10gb 8x1gb unmanaged switch to connect a Synology 1817+ in the family room downstairs to an iMac 5K w/10gb in my office, 1GB backhaul on the Orbis, and 1GB run up to various parts of the house with the switch living in the utility room downstairs.

The question is: is it worthwhile running the 1GB backhaul on the Orbis replacing a 5ghz AX6000 connection? Now that I've got gigabit service this is beginning to look more worthwhile.

If you're running an ethernet backhaul, what speed difference have you experienced?

I'm a tad apprehensive as I've never run cable through the house before, and my most optimistic plan is to use old existing telephone wire to pull Cat6 and new telephone wire through the house with the hope that when the house was originally wired they didn't wrap it around a nail along the way.

*Really* hoping I don't have to run cable up to the attic and drop cable down from up there.

Any advise on this project would be appreciated.

bullm00n · ‎2021-03-30

Yes, bummer about that dropdown box that doesn't include our gear.

When I first set up our AX6000, I tried my single satellite wired and wireless backhaul and there was not an obvious difference when using OOKLA to test speeds. I only tried this over a couple of days, but either seemed to work as well. My best speeds with my iPhone were in the 700s. Depending on where I am in the house I can get anywhere from 350-750 Mbps. I have the wire in place, so I could switch back to wired but for now I'm leaving it wireless. Theoretically the wireless backhaul should be capable of higher speeds. I should connect a wired device to the wireless satellite and test setup that for a better comparison that would isolate the backhaul performance. My wired devices are getting 950 Mbps on a good day. 🙂 So I will do that test when I have some time.

Good luck with your wiring. If I were doing it, I'd put the wire in place even if wireless works - at some point you may want to do something differently and I figure while you are in the middle of pulling cable, may as well do all of it and get it out of the way.

VerneArase · ‎2021-03-30

I'm getting about 680-720/41.2-41.6 mbps through a LAN cable from my office satallite to my iMac 5K, but about 941/39.5 directly out of the main router (now that Speedtest is working again).

The office iMac to the Synology downstairs is a pretty consistent 60-66 MB/sec which ethernet should improve to a little less than a gigabyte.

If you use ethernet backhaul, does the Orbi free up the backhaul radios for other devices?

I'm thinking of putting a 2 10gb / 8 1gb unmanaged switch in the utility room with a 10 gb and 1 gb going to the Synology and Orbi router in the family room, a 10 gb and 1gb going up to my office for the iMac and Orbi satellite, a 1gb going up to my wife's office, and 1 gb going up to the living room for the Living Room satellite. That'll get spread by switch to the various living room devices and daisy chained to the dining room where my wife has a computer and we have another iMac 5K. The Living Room to Dining Room feed will have to go up in the attic with drops down two walls, an interior and an exterior.

Can you run the backhaul through a switch, or does each router <-> satellite connection require it's own (topologically speaking) wire? If that's the case, that would mean two additional 1 gb runs from the router to each of the satellites in the Living Room and Office.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-03-30

No you can run a switch in between.

I have 1 8 port switch off the RBR, then two other sub 5 port switches after that. One RBS ethernet connected to each of those sub switches. Daisy Chaining switchs works fine.

DatabaseJase · ‎2021-03-30

@VerneArase wrote:

If you use ethernet backhaul, does the Orbi free up the backhaul radios for other devices?

The wireless backhaul can not be used by devices even with wired backhaul in place as that is dedicated to wireless backhaul only.

Another thing I would say is to wire as many devices as you can to either the RBR850 or RBS850 simply to reduce as much radio chatter in your household as possible. Downstairs our TV, Xbox, Sky Q and a SONOS Soundbar are wired to the RBR850. That way only mobile devices (tablets, phones, etc.) are using wireless.

bullm00n · ‎2021-03-31

I did a quick test like I said I would. The computer I ran speedtest on is usually directly wired to a switch that goes to the orbi and then to the WAN. The first result of 928 Mbps is that setup from a month ago. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th results in the 600s are with that computer wired into the BRS850 satellite port with the satellite using wireless backhaul. The final result of 950 Mbps is with the satellite using wired backhaul, which is clearly better for my installation.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-01

Thanks for posting your results. Good to see that is working well for you.

Enjoy,.

@bullm00n wrote:
I did a quick test like I said I would. The computer I ran speedtest on is usually directly wired to a switch that goes to the orbi and then to the WAN. The first result of 928 Mbps is that setup from a month ago. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th results in the 600s are with that computer wired into the BRS850 satellite port with the satellite using wireless backhaul. The final result of 950 Mbps is with the satellite using wired backhaul, which is clearly better for my installation.

DatabaseJase · ‎2021-04-01

Looks great and if you can run a wired back haul then great but if not then consider why you'd need more than the 650Mbps other than for the fastest downloads. As I mentioned a 4K stream is only about 50Mbps. In my experience Xbox servers max out at about 100Mbps for downloads even on our Xbox directly wired to the router.

Good luck with the cable pulls if you decide to go ahead.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-01

My xbox gets over 200 and 300Mpbs when doing updates and downloads. Mines wired to the RBR.

DatabaseJase · ‎2021-04-01

@FURRYe38 wrote:
My xbox gets over 200 and 300Mpbs when doing updates and downloads. Mines wired to the RBR.

Could be our Circle Home Plus restricting those speeds then but it doesn't impact other devices like that.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-01

Yes of course. Anything with device or traffic managment can impact speeds and performances. Also it can be MS services too. I was updateing BO5 the other night and was a 9Gb update, speeds started tanking near rock bottom speeds and was going to take over hours to complete I came back about 15 minutes later and the speeds were up over 200Mbps. It completed about 5-10 minutes later finally. So there is that.

DatabaseJase · ‎2021-04-05

Appreciate this is getting off topic but last night I noticed a message about downloads being slower due to a running game. I quit the game and downloads jumped to between 200Mbps-300Mbps so I expect the Xbox has worked that way for a while but now they are informing us of that limiting factor. Good to know Circle Home Plus is not causing the slow speeds.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-05

Kewl, at least MS is getting a bit more informaative on there console.

bullm00n · ‎2021-04-23

@fasa33 wrote:
The steps that you taken there are impressive but in my opinion ethernet will never change the speed as much as may be you are expecting from it seehere the details about it.

It certainly depends on the weakest link, but do you not think 1Gbps is better than a 10Mbps link - if the attached devices need the speed or especially if many devices share that pipe? And your link to office chairs is not likely illuminating.

FURRYe38 · ‎2021-04-23

Thats spam @bullm00n

VerneArase · ‎2021-05-07

@DatabaseJase wrote:
This is a great question and I've fallen into the trap of getting obsessed with how much of our core internet speed (currently a 300Mbps Fibre connection) is distributed around the home. Through general testing I've found that wired devices to the RBR850 get the full 300Mbps and wireless devices connected to the RBR850 get around 250Mbps (at these speeds Wifi6 isn't much of a benefit). The RBS850 gives wired devices about 250Mbps and wireless devices about 200Mbps (these vary by device type; PC, iPad, iPhone, etc.).

I have tested with ethernet backhaul and that makes the RBS850 show similar speeds to devices as if they were connected to the RBR850 directly (wired and wireless). Depending on needs using wireless backhaul is sufficient so long as the signal/distance between the router and the satellite is strong/not too far.

What I finally made myself think about is what benefit is there of getting the optimum speeds at the RBS850? A 4K video stream needs about a 50Mbps so is that my baseline? Downloading games/updates that run into many GBs then speed optimisation is important but does a few extra minutes waiting for a download to finish mean running ethernet backhaul is worth it?

Yeah, I got all the ethernet cable and stuff but looking at some of the wiring I found RJ-11 cable tacked in runs along the walls, and am wondering if it's worth it to run ethernet everywhere.

Certainly would be more worthwhile if the mesh nodes supported something more than 1gbps - but doing all this would only incrementally increase throughput for most nodes. I could get 10gbps between my office iMac and the Synology downstairs - which would greatly increase the 60-66 MB/sec I currently get - but really that's only an advantage during backups and restores as the Synology is really primary backup for a Thunderbolt connected Drobo 8D in my office.

In general I don't need high throughput for this connection - though one time I did when I had to reformat the Drobo to increase its single volume storage capacity, and that incident did require restore of some 32 TB of data. That would be more painful today, but again I could do what I did then and haul the Synology upstairs and direct connect the iMac and Synology and now I could get the full 10gpbs which would make the restore run at nearly a gigabyte/sec (my old iMac didn't have a 10gpbs ethernet port).

The thing that would make the entire project more worthwhile would be if 10mbps was ubiquitous - but most ports even now only support 1gbps and 10 gig equipment (like large multiport switches) are still really expensive.