Re: My Ethernet Backhaul Setup

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-07-13

Sorry in advance for the long post.

I have been following this forum as an observer for quite a while now, and have noticed that many people are having issues with their Orbi setup, either when using the wireless backhaul, or when using the wired backhaul. I have owned my Orbi system (RBK53 from Costco) for several months now, and with the recent firmware updates, I have had no issues with either backhaul setup. I spent a couple weeks in the beginning troubleshooting my particular setup (determining which channel to use because the airwaves are flooded in my neighborhood, finding the right position for the satellites and router in the house, reserving IPs for finicky devices, etc.), and thought I would share my results, here, in the hopes that it would help my fellow Orbi users troubleshoot some of the issues they may be having with their setup.

Here is a diagram of my current network:

My house is a fairly large, 2 story home, and as you can see, I have a good number of wired and wireless devices connected at any given time. The router and the satellites are spread out to the far ends of the house in a 3D triangle formation (Router and Satellite on the 2nd floor, opposite ends of house relative to each other; Satellite on the 1st floor opposite end of house relative to 2nd floor units). Each of the satellites has an IP reservation of 192.168.1.2 and .3. MU-MIMO and Daisy Chain are disabled for this configuration, and Fast Roaming and Implicit Beamforming are enabled for my mobile devices. I have noticed that my Apple devices are more likely to connect to the closest AP/Router if Fast Roaming is enabled, and implicit beamforming seems to provide better throughput overall for my wireless devices. The 2.4GHz channel is set at 1 (my neighbors have flooded the 1,6, and 11 spectrum with fewer having selected channel 1). The 5GHz channel is set at 40, which, thankfully, is not used at all by any of my neighbors. The system is connected to Xfinity Gigabit internet, with the XB6 modem set in bridge mode and with its xfinity wifi hotspot disabled. As my home is pre-wired with Cat6 cable runs, I have an 8-port unmanaged switch distributing ethernet connections to the rest of the house. Both Satellites connect directly to this switch. I have another 5-port unmanaged switch connected to one of the satellites, which connects to my main room's media devices.

Initially, I had the satellites connect to the router via the wireless backhaul, and everything was fairly stable. I experienced only the occasional device disconnect or system reset with the earlier firmware, and it became more stable with the recent versions. If I did a speed test while connected wirelessly on my Macbook Air, I was seeing roughly 300-400Mb down and ~25Mb up. My iMac, connected via ethernet directly to the RBR50, would post the expected 800-900Mb down and 40-60Mb up. After converting the system to wired backhaul, I noticed a good improvement to my wireless devices. My Macbook Air now showed 500-600Mb downstream and 40-60Mb upstream.

So far, everything is running smoothly with the wired backhaul. The current layout of the 3D triangle (I don't know how better to describe it), the IP reservation for the satellites, and the different wireless settings seem to result in the best performance for this system. When I had tried putting the RBR50 centrally in the house, with the satellites on opposite ends, I was getting very unstable results (the units were probably too close to each other and their signals were interfering). I understand that everyone has a different shaped home, but if you can, I would suggest this triangle formation and the settings I have used.

I hope this helps.

RocketSquirrel · ‎2018-08-07

My home network's layout is similar to yours. My home is wired, and I have so many unmanaged switches I've lost count. I think 7 off the top of my head, all different brands and models. Wherever possible, I prefer wired connections to wireless; if a device has an Ethernet jack, it's plugged in.

I found the Orbi RBR50 lacking in routing features, and demoted it to access point, placing my Asus AC68U back into service. This setup works well for me, with each component doing what it does best.

With the Orbis in my setup, the word I'd use to describe it is "metastable." It works great unless any of the Orbis is disturbed, then my network crashes in a horrible mess (as in no device can ping any other device) and needs at least 30 minutes of manual intervention to restore to service. This never happened with my previous wireless access points (one Asus, one Netgear) which the Orbi satellites replaced.

Do you find your network can recover itself after a power glitch?

adjective: metastable

(of a state of equilibrium) stable provided it is subjected to no more than small disturbances.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-08-07

The wireless back haul works for most configurations. The one issue that seems to cause problems are these managed switches and or IGMP protocls on them. As long and users use non managed switches, preferred or disable this IGMP protocol on thre managed switches, should be good. Also the use of good quality cabling is recommended. CAT6.

I have 3 non managed switches in between my 1 satellite thats wired back haul. Working with out problems. I did find that setting the satellite(s) on a reserved IP address is recommended. Including all other devices that need router management.

Also find that setting a smaller DHCP IP address pool works as well. I use .100 thru .200. Leaves me room on either side for static IP address assigned devices like printers, cameras, NAS and controllers. Items that don't need much router management.

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-08-08

@RocketSquirrel, 7 switches?!!! How many devices do you have?! Like you, I definitely prefer a wired connection over wireless if I can manage it.

Since I posted my setup back in July, I too have experienced the problem with Orbi losing all functionality when the power goes out. We had some rolling brown outs where I am that totally froze my Orbi system. I could probably get around this by connecting the main unit and the satellites each to a UPS, but that would be expensive and not worth the headache of explaining to the wife why there was a big ugly box next to the table that had the Orbi. For now, I will just do the power cycle dance to bring everything back up if it freezes. As long as there is no power fluctuation, I don't have a problem with the wired backaul, and these brown outs are pretty rare in my area.

I like the idea of using the ASUS router in place of the Orbi (setting to AP mode). The Orbi router functions are nowhere close to what my old router was capable of. I have an ASUS RT-AC88U that the Orbi replaced, so I may try that and update my post if it works well. Other than turning off the wi-fi on the 88U, any other tips or tricks to modify my setup?

RocketSquirrel · ‎2018-08-08

@SeaMonkey80 wrote:

@RocketSquirrel, 7 switches?!!! How many devices do you have?! Like you, I definitely prefer a wired connection over wireless if I can manage it.

Since I posted my setup back in July, I too have experienced the problem with Orbi losing all functionality when the power goes out. We had some rolling brown outs where I am that totally froze my Orbi system. I could probably get around this by connecting the main unit and the satellites each to a UPS, but that would be expensive and not worth the headache of explaining to the wife why there was a big ugly box next to the table that had the Orbi. For now, I will just do the power cycle dance to bring everything back up if it freezes. As long as there is no power fluctuation, I don't have a problem with the wired backaul, and these brown outs are pretty rare in my area.

I like the idea of using the ASUS router in place of the Orbi (setting to AP mode). The Orbi router functions are nowhere close to what my old router was capable of. I have an ASUS RT-AC88U that the Orbi replaced, so I may try that and update my post if it works well. Other than turning off the wi-fi on the 88U, any other tips or tricks to modify my setup?

7 switches seems more reasonable when you realize that every room in my house that has Ethernet has at least 2 devices in it, hence the need for a switch.

Switch 1: in the home run network closet, fed directly from main Orbi

Switch 2: in the office to split off the printer

Switch 3: also in the office so I only have to run 1 cable across the floor to 2 computers

Switch 4: in master bedroom to feed TV & Blu-ray player

Switch 5: in second bedroom downstream of Orbi satellite to run only 1 cable to TV & Blu-ray player

Switch 6: in family room to feed Control4 system (left by previous owner) which runs whole-house audio and local family room TV & audio

Switch 7: in my home theater downstream of Orbi satellite #2 to run all the devices there

Switches number 3 & 5 are optional just to avoid extra cables.

Re expense of UPSes, these $40 ones will work. Compare to the cost of Orbis and the pain of doing the power cycle dance. In my 4800 sq ft home, the dance is more of a run from one end to the other and up and down stairs watching for rings to turn from white to blue.

Of course, with all these powered switches, most of them die during a power outage. I haven't yet run the experiment to see whether the Orbis on UPSes revert to wireless backhaul when the wired switches lose power.

No tricks to using the Asus router as a router and the Orbi as a WAP. Just turn off the router's WiFi, connect the Orbi to the Asus WAN-to-LAN, and put the Orbi into AP mode.

striola · ‎2018-08-09

I have an RBR20 with 2 RBS20 satellites which are both connected to the router through an unmanaged switch. I am able to get wired backhaul working properly but I also lose all functionality when there is a power outage. When power is restored to the Orbi, I need to unplug ethernet on each satellite to get the Orbi system back online. I then need to reconnect the wired backhaul for each satellite (sometimes this takes multiple power cycles). It's a pain, but the real problem is if we lose power when I'm not home to fix the system.

I filed a case with Netgear hoping they are reading our feedback and can implement a firmware fix.

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-08-14

UPDATE from OP:

I have modified my setup from the original post to include my ASUS RT-AC88U as the main router. The 88U has wifi disabled (I even disconnected all four antennae to be safe) and the Orbi is now functioning in AP mode with the satellites connected via wired backhaul.

I am finding that this setup is even better than before. Devices are running smoothly, and wireless signal is strong all around the house and outside. One snag I ran into when I was first connecting everything together was that the satellites would not porperly sync after switching to AP mode. I tried rebooting everything several times, but still could not get the satellites properly synced with the RBR50.

After about an hour of this plug-unplug-reset dance, I finally had success. When I logged into the Orbi through the web browser (forget about using the app; it is dumb and does not do anything useful), then went to ADVANCED -> ADMINISTRATION -> ATTACHED DEVICES, the satellites showed as disconnected, so I thought "what the hell, why not just push that 'REMOVE DEVICE' button next to each satellite." "What's the worst that could happen?" In fact, that was the best thing to do. I then hit the SYNC button on the back of the router, followed by the SYNC button on the back of the Satellite (setup each fully, one at a time), and the Satellite connected perfectly with wireless backhaul. Once I got the blue light of success, I plugged in the ethernet cable, and boom, it converted to wired backhaul without a problem and without a delay. Repeated with the second satellite, and result was same.

I have now been up and running with the ASUS RT-AC88U -> RBR50 (AP mode) -> RBS50 (x2; wired backhaul) for 6 days now without any issues. [NOTE: The Orbi router (AP Mode) and the Satellites have static IPs 192.168.1.2-4]. Thankfully, there have been no power outages, so everything is stable and still connected. All my devices are being routed correctly, no device has shown signs of random disconnects, and I have more control of my network with the 88U as the routing workhorse.

So far so good.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-08-14

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Looking-for-a-select-group-of-Orbi-Community-members-that-are/...

ed-m · ‎2018-08-15

I'm attempting to use an RBR50 with 2 RBS50 satelites with a wired backhaul. I agree with one of the posters above about the setup being "metastable". Some times it works, sometimes it doesn't. If I power cycle after a problem, it seems that any wired connection to the RBR50 works, but wifi to either the RBR or RBS units fails to connect.

I'm pretty disappointed as this was an expensive setup, and my initial elation at having a strong wifi signal throughout the house has faded away. I'm wasting hours of time rebooting routers, and trying to get everything running which lasts for a day or two, then I'm running around the house plugging and unplugging devices hoping that one of the power cycles will fix it.

BTW, running 2.1.4.16 firmware

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-08-15

@ed-m, when you power cycle the Orbi system, are you keeping the satellites plugged in via the ethernet cables to the RBR50? If so, then this is probably why it is not connecting properly to your wireless clients. Whenever you do the reset dance, you should unplug the ethernet cables linking the orbis together, and have it connect to the wireless backhaul first. Then, once the satellite is connected and synced with the RBR50, plug in the ethernet cable and it should switch over to wired backhaul.

striola · ‎2018-08-15

I just installed Google Wifi in my parents' house since Orbi has been too unreliable for me. Pros and cons to each system, but in my limited experience the ease of setup and reliability of Google wifi clearly wins out based on current firmware. Hopefully Netgear can make much needed improvements.

As a side note, one of my Arlo cameras has stopped functioning properly after the latest firmware update. I don't know what is going on over at Netgear QA, but it's not good. I'm regretting investing in their systems given all of the bugs they are pushing out.

ed-m · ‎2018-08-16

@SeaMonkey80 , thanks for the reply. I hadn't tried that, and that is possible for one of the satelites to establish a wifi backhaul first, but for the second one, the signal is just not strong enough for the wifi backhaul to connect. But I think your idea is good, and in fact yesterday I finally got the second satelite to work by deleting it, bringing it next to the RBR, and syncing the units over wifi, then I moved the satelite back and connected it with ethernet and all seems good for now .....

... but....

I shouldn't have to jump through hoops everytime there is a hiccup..... the firmware needs to improve..... and I'm not sure what happens for the rest of the family if i'm not around the next time there's a problem.

Thank you for jumping in and responding to my post yesterday ..... I appreciate the help 🙂

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-08-16

You guys might hope over to the new beta test thread and see about getting some new beta to try. Migtht be worth testing it out and see if this helps this...

@ed-m wrote:

@SeaMonkey80 , thanks for the reply. I hadn't tried that, and that is possible for one of the satelites to establish a wifi backhaul first, but for the second one, the signal is just not strong enough for the wifi backhaul to connect. But I think your idea is good, and in fact yesterday I finally got the second satelite to work by deleting it, bringing it next to the RBR, and syncing the units over wifi, then I moved the satelite back and connected it with ethernet and all seems good for now .....

... but....

I shouldn't have to jump through hoops everytime there is a hiccup..... the firmware needs to improve..... and I'm not sure what happens for the rest of the family if i'm not around the next time there's a problem.

Thank you for jumping in and responding to my post yesterday ..... I appreciate the help 🙂

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-08-16

@ed-m wrote:

@SeaMonkey80 , thanks for the reply. I hadn't tried that, and that is possible for one of the satelites to establish a wifi backhaul first, but for the second one, the signal is just not strong enough for the wifi backhaul to connect. But I think your idea is good, and in fact yesterday I finally got the second satelite to work by deleting it, bringing it next to the RBR, and syncing the units over wifi, then I moved the satelite back and connected it with ethernet and all seems good for now .....

... but....

I shouldn't have to jump through hoops everytime there is a hiccup..... the firmware needs to improve..... and I'm not sure what happens for the rest of the family if i'm not around the next time there's a problem.

Thank you for jumping in and responding to my post yesterday ..... I appreciate the help 🙂

Agreed. Netgear should try to solve this issue, if they have not already. There is a beta firmware that I have signed up to test that may have fixed this problem, but I haven't yet installed it on my system - waiting for the weekend.

Logically, given the procedure we have to go through in order to connect the wired backhaul, it would seem that a simple fix would be to somehow delay the activation of the ethernet ports on the satellites until the wifi backhaul has synced and configured after the system boots. This way, if the power goes out, then the system could come back online, connect to the wifi backhaul, then automatically connect to the wired backhaul after the set delay. No need to do the silly run around the house unplugging and plugging in cables. Just my thought for a possible fix...

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-09-27

Let us know if this might be fixed in the beta...

@SeaMonkey80 wrote:

@ed-m wrote:

@SeaMonkey80 , thanks for the reply. I hadn't tried that, and that is possible for one of the satelites to establish a wifi backhaul first, but for the second one, the signal is just not strong enough for the wifi backhaul to connect. But I think your idea is good, and in fact yesterday I finally got the second satelite to work by deleting it, bringing it next to the RBR, and syncing the units over wifi, then I moved the satelite back and connected it with ethernet and all seems good for now .....

... but....

I shouldn't have to jump through hoops everytime there is a hiccup..... the firmware needs to improve..... and I'm not sure what happens for the rest of the family if i'm not around the next time there's a problem.

Thank you for jumping in and responding to my post yesterday ..... I appreciate the help 🙂

Agreed. Netgear should try to solve this issue, if they have not already. There is a beta firmware that I have signed up to test that may have fixed this problem, but I haven't yet installed it on my system - waiting for the weekend.

Logically, given the procedure we have to go through in order to connect the wired backhaul, it would seem that a simple fix would be to somehow delay the activation of the ethernet ports on the satellites until the wifi backhaul has synced and configured after the system boots. This way, if the power goes out, then the system could come back online, connect to the wifi backhaul, then automatically connect to the wired backhaul after the set delay. No need to do the silly run around the house unplugging and plugging in cables. Just my thought for a possible fix...

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-09-27

For my setup, this new Beta 2.2.1.204 has fixed the backhaul issue. It now recovers after power outage, and the network is stable. Speeds are much better across the board, and I haven't had any random reboots or disconnects. So far, so good.

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-09-27

Awesome.

striola · ‎2018-09-27

Great to hear the beta is promising. I'm hoping they get that tested and released ASAP as the current firmware has too many issues.

gekins · ‎2018-10-01

Where and how can you download the beta firm ware 2.2.1.204?

Thanks in advance

FURRYe38 · ‎2018-10-02

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Looking-for-a-select-group-of-Orbi-Community-members-that-are/...

@gekins wrote:

Where and how can you download the beta firm ware 2.2.1.204?

Thanks in advance

RocketSquirrel · ‎2018-10-02

@SeaMonkey80 wrote:

Logically, given the procedure we have to go through in order to connect the wired backhaul, it would seem that a simple fix would be to somehow delay the activation of the ethernet ports on the satellites until the wifi backhaul has synced and configured after the system boots. This way, if the power goes out, then the system could come back online, connect to the wifi backhaul, then automatically connect to the wired backhaul after the set delay. No need to do the silly run around the house unplugging and plugging in cables. Just my thought for a possible fix...

I agree about the running around the house. But I think your suggestion is backwards. At boot time, the Orbi's should look for wired backhaul first. Failing that, they should revert to wireless.

The reason is that some of us are using wired stations which are too distant to sync and connect wirelessly. That will always fail.

Better yet, add GUI controls to allow the user to specify wired or wireless for each satellite. I haven't seen the current 2.2 beta, but I hope some such improvement is in there.

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-10-02

The newest beta, v. 2.2.1.204, is running really well on my setup. There is no issue with the ethernet backhaul with my sats or main orbi. If there is a power loss, then everything reconnects perfectly - no system hangs or disconnects at all. For now, this is looking like a really good update. @RocketSquirrel, you should give it a try.

RocketSquirrel · ‎2018-10-02

@SeaMonkey80 wrote:

The newest beta, v. 2.2.1.204, is running really well on my setup. There is no issue with the ethernet backhaul with my sats or main orbi. If there is a power loss, then everything reconnects perfectly - no system hangs or disconnects at all. For now, this is looking like a really good update. @RocketSquirrel, you should give it a try.

Thanks, I think I will, since the only comments I've seen have been positive. (Although I did mitigate the power loss issue using UPSes. It turns out to be quite handy to maintain Internet via WiFi during power outages.)

Is it necessary, or recommended, to perform a factory reset before or after upgrading 2.1.4.16 to 2.2.1.204? And if my Orbi router is in AP mode, will it stay in AP mode after upgrading? I'm trying to determine how much time I should set aside to upgrade.

gekins · ‎2018-10-02

Hi, I've run into the same mind numbing backhaul issues you have described and REALLY want to update to the beta 2.2.1.204 before I lose more hair trying to get this to function properly. Can you please let me know how to get the update?

Thank you!!

SeaMonkey80 · ‎2018-10-02

@RocketSquirrel wrote:

Thanks, I think I will, since the only comments I've seen have been positive. (Although I did mitigate the power loss issue using UPSes. It turns out to be quite handy to maintain Internet via WiFi during power outages.)

Is it necessary, or recommended, to perform a factory reset before or after upgrading 2.1.4.16 to 2.2.1.204? And if my Orbi router is in AP mode, will it stay in AP mode after upgrading? I'm trying to determine how much time I should set aside to upgrade.

Is it necessary to factory reset, probably not. I did a factory reset just for good measure, as it is a beta firmware, and I didn't have too many non-standard settings. It wasn't too hard and it didn't take too long to get the system back online correctly.