Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

TLDR: With Orbi, my 5Ghz capable devices are "forced" to connect to 2.4 Ghz most of the time, slowing down speed. Tested against 3 different routers and my 5Ghz capable can connect to 5Ghz network all the time.

I got the 3-pack Orbi from Costco and after numerous testing, ALL my devices are connecting to 2.4 Ghz MOST of the TIME rather than 5 Ghz. This slows down the transfer speed from 800 Mbps to a paltry 145 Mbps.

Unfortunately, since the Orbi does not allow separate SSID for 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz, I cannot "force" my device to connect only to 5Ghz to get better speed. This means that I have a $499 router system that mostly allow only 2.4 Ghz.

I previously have a Time Capsule and setup 2 separate SSID:

- devices capable of 5Ghz will ONLY connect to 5Ghz SSID (MacBook, iPhone, etc.)

- devices capable of ONLY 2.4 Ghz will connect to 2.4Ghz SSID (thermostate, etc.)

There was no changes on the setup or placement of my devices when I replace the Time Capsule with the Orbi:

1). Orbi is in the middle of apartment, same location as my Time Capsule

2). Laptops are in the same area as before (desk, room 1, etc.)

3). Other devices are in the same area as before (printer, camera, thermostat, etc.).

4). No new devices that can interference with Wifi signal

The ONLY changes is the Orbi Router and Satellite and now all my 5Ghz capable devices are connecting to 2.4 Ghz with Orbi.

I powered down Orbi, put my Time Capsule back and BAM!! I got 5Ghz connection again. For a separate testing, I bought the following:

- Netgear Nighthawk AC1900

- ASUS RTC3200

Setup both to have separate SSID and BAM! 5Ghz devices can connect to ONLY 5Ghz network.

I hope Orbi will change this in the new upgrade. Otherwise, I have no need for a $499 router that "force" 5Ghz devices to connect to 2.4 Ghz network.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

FYI, for MacBook, you can see which channel it connect to by holding the Alt/Option button and click on the wireless icon in the menubar. A dropdown menu will pop-up and you can see something like the attached screenshot.

As you can see, my MacBooks, which are 5Ghz capable devices, ONLY connect to 2.4 Ghz and I only get 104 Mbps speed. This is when the MacBooks are only 5-10 feets away from the Orbi router and/or Orbi satellites.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-28

Macbooks will keep whatever WiFi connection they have, and will NOT switch, until the RSSI goes below -75 dB. So, if you ever connected to a 2.4 GHz channel, your Macbook will stick on 2.4 GHz regardless of how close you move to the router/satellite, unless the 2.4 signal drops below -75. Turn WiFi off then on again, and you should connect to the strongest 5 Ghz source.

You haven't said how you are testing the speed, or between what two points. A throughput of 104 Mbps is exactly what I get between two wirless Macbooks on 5 GHz, using Orbi or using Ubiquiti APs. Your speed doesn't seem unusual.

I get ~200 Mbps max between a Macbook and a wired computer on 5 GHz Throughput between wireless devices is about half that.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

@st_shaw wrote:
Macbooks will keep whatever WiFi connection they have, and will NOT switch, until the RSSI goes below -75 dB. So, if you ever connected to a 2.4 GHz channel, your Macbook will stick on 2.4 GHz regardless of how close you move to the router/satellite, unless the 2.4 signal drops below -75. Turn WiFi off then on again, and you should connect to the strongest 5 Ghz source.

Yes, I am aware about automatic switching at the OS level (OSX, Windows, etc.).

However, I want to be able to have certain 5Ghz devices (MacBook, iPhones, camera, etc.) to always connect to 5Ghz because **I** know I will have good 5Ghz signal at the placement of my devices. As mentioned above, I have Time Capsule and I have this for years with separate SSID for 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz and I know I have great speed when my devices connect to the 5Ghz SSID when I placed my device.

I just did a backup of 3 GB files using Orbi (same SSID for 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz) and comparing the log files from prior backup when connected to Time Capsule wifi (separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz), I see this:

Time Capsule: 3.21 GB in 10:45 minutes (5 Ghz)
Orbi: 3.07 GB in 36:23 minutes (2.4 Ghz)

The Orbi one is when my speed is at 104 Mbps (see screenshot attached).

I just did a turn-on-turn-off of my MacBook wireless 5 TIMES before it connect to Orbi 5Ghz and once connected, I got much faster speed (see 2nd screenshot attached). As you can see, the 5Ghz is almost 3 TIMES faster than 2.4Ghz.

As you can see with the above screenshot, both Orbi 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz have similar RSSI (-41 and -49). Theorotically, I SHOULD still connect to the 5Ghz, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, it did not.

Remember, with separate SSID with my Time Capsule and forcing my 5Ghz device to connect to 5Ghz SSID, I can maintain consistent connection and speed on 5Ghz for years. I also tested with newly bought Netgear Nighthawk AC1900 and ASUS RTC3200 and separate SSID and I get the same result.

This is why I want to have separate SSID so I can force my device to connect to 5Ghz and not rely on OS auto-switching. I also notice that relying on OS switching often result in the device stuck with the lower speed. E.g. if I come back home, my iPhone will beon 2.4 Ghz because it has the longer distance than 5Ghz, but then I'll get stuck with 2.4 Ghz inside the house until I turn off and turn on my iPhone.

I don't know if this is a technical limitation with the Orbi hardware, but will be great if we can have separate SSID as an option.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-28

My two Macbooks, two iPhones, and iPad all work like you want with Orbi, preferring 5 GHz. So, maybe the problem has something to do with your installation. You compared your Orbi to Time Capsule and to Nighthawk. These each have one access point. Orbi is quite different. With Orbi you have multiple access points operating.

Maybe you have interference on the 5 GHz band. You said you have an apartment and an Orbi 3-pack. I don't know how big your apartment is, or if it's multiple floors, but maybe the router and two satellietes are too close together and interfering with each other.

Standard practice when running multiple acces points is to put them on non-overlapping channels, and to use lower power to avoid overlapping. Unfortunately, Orbi doesn't let you use different channels for the router and satellites.

Try running just the Orib router (with not satellites powered) to see if your devices prefer 5 GHz. This would be comparable to your Time Capsule or Nighthawk setup. If that works, try with one satellite, and see if it stil works.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

I am not a hardware engineer, so I don't know much about radio interference, but the goal of getting an Orbi for me is to AVOID the interference in the hope that my whole apartment can be blanketed with 5Ghz signal so I get the best speed.

I mentioned that I am only 5-10 feet away when the device automatically connected to 2.4 Ghz. Even with interference (if there is any), shouldn't I connect to 5 Ghz?

My apartment is ~1200 sq feet and I put the Orbi Router in the middle of the apartment. The satellites are each at the opposite edges of the apartment. I think this should be sufficient to create a distance between the router and the satellites. Unless Orbi REQUIRES that the distance of the satellites from the router / 2nd satellite to be a minimum of xxx feet?

If the Orbi router/satellites require to be at least, say 100 feet away from each other, then OK, maybe the Orbi is not for my situation then. I'd have to choose another mesh solution that support separate SSID like Amplifi

I am going to reboot the Orbi router and satellites and connect each device one-by-one, but this is long test and I will do it tomorrow. However, I still would recommend that the Orbi have the ability to create separate SSID, barring any technical limitation on the Orbi itself.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-28

One Orbi and two satellites in a 1,200 SF space is crowded. It's probable your issue is interference with three radios all on the same channels in that size area.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you reboot the router and satellites then connect each device one-by-one. That won't help diagnose your issue. I'm saying you should try running just the router, with the two satellites OFF and see if your devices prefer 5 GHz as you desire. Then power on one satellite and see if things still work. Then power on the second satellite and see if things work.

If things work properly with only the router powered on, but degrade with one or two satellites, then you have interference from the router and satellites being too close together.

If your problem is interference, you might be able to get teverything working by reducing the power of the 2.4 and 5 GHz radios in the Orbi under Advanced Setup, Wireless Settings, Transmit Power Control. You mght need to reduce the 2.4 GHz more than the 5 GHz because 2.4 travels farther.

You can also turn off the 2.4 G Hz radios in the same menu, but then you cannot use any device that's not 5 G Hz capable.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

@st_shaw wrote:

You can also turn off the 2.4 G Hz radios in the same menu, but then you cannot use any device that's not 5 G Hz capable.
You mght need to reduce the 2.4 GHz more than the 5 GHz because 2.4 travels farther.

Hmm.. wouldn't it be easier to just have separate SSID and force specific device to connect only to the 5Ghz SSID? This way, doesn't matter how strong the 2.4 Ghz radios are, my device will not connect to the 2.4 Ghz SSID. ^_^

I'll try the turning-off satellites mode one by one tomorrow. Life is too short for me to wake up my SO in the middle of the night just for moving around Orbi satellites...

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-28

If your problem is interference, then the answer is "No." Having separate SSIDs will not have any effect on interference. Also, modern devices on a properly configured, properly functioning, wireless network will roam better between APs with a single SSID.

Also, please do not move your router or satellites when doing the test I suggested. You want them in the position that's causing you issues when you run the test. Keep the router and satellites exactly where they are, and just turn them on and off. You can move your devices around though.

Of course, you might need to move the router and satellites later if you find they are interfering with each other.

Also, note that the issue would not be from 2.4 GHz interfering with 5 GHz, or vice versa. The 2.4 and 5 bands do not overlap, so they do not interfere.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-28

@st_shaw wrote:
If your problem is interference, then the answer is "No." Having separate SSIDs will not have any effect on interference.

Also, note that the issue would not be from 2.4 GHz interfering with 5 GHz, or vice versa. The 2.4 and 5 bands do not overlap, so they do not interfere.

So I was right then by wanting two separate SSID (2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz). If Orbi have that capability, I can configure my 5Ghz-capable devices to ONLY connect to 5Ghz SSID and problem solved.

@st_shaw wrote:
Also, modern devices on a properly configured, properly functioning, wireless network will roam better between APs with a single SSID.

I have 2016 MBP 15", 2015 MacBook 12", 2015 MBP 15", 2014 MBP 13", 3 iPhones (6/6S/6Plus), iPad Pro 9.7, iPad Pro 12". I also have 2 Mac Minis but these are hard-wired.

I think these are as "modern" as it can be. No futher tweaking / configuration is required for macOS or iOS NIC or the OS itself AFAIK. Unless you're saying that all these macOS and iOS devices have problems with wireless network... hard to believe considering it has been functioning well with other routers with separate SSID.

This is my reasoning on hoping Orbi can have 2 separate SSID:

1). A router and 2 satellites blanket my apartments with BOTH 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz bandwith

2). With separate 5 Ghz SSID, configure my 5Ghz-capable devices to ONLY connect to the 5Ghz SSID

3). With separate 2.4 Ghz SSID, configure my 2.4Ghz-capable devices to ONLY connect to the 2.4Ghz SSID

I feel like I am going in circle with you and the solution is still simple: have separate SSID.

nick776 · ‎2017-01-29

I AGREE, it would be GREAT to have two SSIDs for 2ghz and 5ghz.

Redlightning88 · ‎2017-01-29

My experience is that every device I have that supports 2.4 and 5 connects to 5 every time without issue. I have a mix of apple and android products plus game consoles, tvs, amazon echos, etc... I had the same concern initially in that I wanted to be able to force a connection, but I haven't seen any problems with this at all over 3 months of use. I have the orbi router and 2 satellites in 6500sf. I agree that just the router alone would be more than sufficient, router plus one satellite is likely overkill, and three devices in 1200sf is likely cooking you veerrrrryyyy slloooowwwwllly. Interested to hear back whether just running the router with no satellite makes a difference.

nick776 · ‎2017-01-29

The preference for separate SSIDs is not a speed issue for me. I would prefer to force my iPhone on 2.4 ghz full time due to the longer range. I rely entirely on WiFi calling, so 2.4 ghz is better used for me when I'm outside my house. There is simply no reason to not allow such. Ditto for wired backhaul. Eero, Velop, etc. have wired backhaul, why not Orbi?

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-29

@ChuckieCheese wrote:
I feel like I am going in circle with you and the solution is still simple: have separate SSID.

You feel like this because you don't have the training to understand how radio communication works. That's fine, but it means your assumptions about how things work are not accurate, and your expectations are therefore unrealistic.

I'm not debating whether two SSIDs are needed. I'm trying to help you solve your specific issue, in a manner that will work. At the moment two SSIDs is not an available option, so it's irrelevant to solving your issue. Also, for technical reasons that you don't yet understand, having two SSIDs will not solve WiFI interference problems.

This discussion might help you understand interference and why two SSIDs won't solve it:

http://superuser.com/questions/474280/considerations-about-using-multiple-wireless-access-points-wit...

Please try my suggestion of operating with just the router (satellites OFF) and let us know what you find. You may find that Orbi is not the right solution for you.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-29

@st_shaw wrote:

I'm not debating whether two SSIDs are needed. I'm trying to help you solve your specific issue, in a manner that will work. At the moment two SSIDs is not an available option, so it's irrelevant to solving your issue.

Having 2 separate SSID will solve my specific issue, as I described in my previous comments. I see you quoted superuser.com, which I also lurk often. Here's the information on 2 separate SSID:

http://superuser.com/questions/362366/does-it-make-sense-to-keep-different-ssids-for-2-4ghz-and-5ghz...

Quote from top comment:

if you keep the SSIDs different, it means that you can prioritise 5GHz over 2.4GHz by adding both to your Wi-Fi connections, and saying that one is better than the other.

@st_shaw wrote:

Please try my suggestion of operating with just the router (satellites OFF) and let us know what you find. You may find that Orbi is not the right solution for you.

I did it just now and result:

- MacBook connect 5Ghz

- After about 30 minutes, it switch to 2.4 Ghz and stayed there

- Rebooted MacBook and this time it connect directly to 2.4 Ghz and stay there

Testing condition:

- All Macbooks I have

- Distance is from 10 feet from the router and then 25 feet

I am going back to Costco to exchange and test again.

My statement still stand: having separate SSID allows prioritization of 5Ghz network if the user choose to do so.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-29

@ChuckieCheese We are not disagreeing. However, I don't think you have understood my point yet. Let me try to explain better...

Yes, separate SSIDs will allow your 5 GHz devices to connect to 5 GHz only. We agree on that!

What I'm saying is this... If the 5 GHz band in your apartment is suffering from collissions and interference and not working well, then your 5 GHz devices will still perform poorly when connected to the 5 GHz SSID.

Thanks for reporting your results. Based on your test, it appears you either have bad Orbi hardware, or you have problems with the 5 GHz band in your apartment from other interference sources. This could be from your neighbors' WiFi systems, wireless speakers, etc.

Have you scanned for nearby access points using WiFi scanning software on your MacBook? You need to make sure your Orbi is set to an unused 5 GHz channel.

whsbuss-1 · ‎2017-01-29

@st_shaw wrote:
@ChuckieCheese We are not disagreeing. However, I don't think you have understood my point yet. Let me try to explain better...

Yes, separate SSIDs will allow your 5 GHz devices to connect to 5 GHz only. We agree on that!

What I'm saying is this... If the 5 GHz band in your apartment is suffering from collissions and interference and not working well, then your 5 GHz devices will still perform poorly when connected to the 5 GHz SSID.

Thanks for reporting your results. Based on your test, it appears you either have bad Orbi hardware, or you have problems with the 5 GHz band in your apartment from other interference sources. This could be from your neighbors' WiFi systems, wireless speakers, etc.

Have you scanned for nearby access points using WiFi scanning software on your MacBook? You need to make sure your Orbi is set to an unused 5 GHz channel.

IMO the OP will have to find a solution outside Orbi. As I totally agree that his issue is wifi interference, its clear that separate SSIDs is what he wants. I know before I went with a single SSID I was always trying to roam on the 5G band and got lousy results. Then I decided it didn't matter what band I was on, hence the single SSID. Now I don't even look to see what band my devices are on AS long as I get full bandwidth.

cue003 · ‎2017-01-29

There has also got to be some collisions etc of bouncing between satellites and router when you have 3 in a space that can be easily occupied by just the Orbi router. Maybe reducing the transmit power on the satellites can help but I doubt it since the coverage area is so small at 1200 sq feet and the router by itself capabale of handling 2000 sq feet.

Seperate SSID though means that the Orbi solution is not for the OP at this time.

Lots of computers and laptops on a small house. Maybe lots of those are stationary and 5ghz would be fine. In my testing I find 5ghz can be sometimes problematic for things like my mobile device since I am constantly moving in and around the house.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-29

I resetted the Orbi and did further testing:

Test condition:

- ALL Orbi units (satellites and routers) ON

- Location of Orbi units are the same as before

- Macs placed in its regular location to mimic real world usage (locationv varies between 5 feets to 20 feets in the next room). Does not apply to iPhone / iPads since they will be moving around.

Result:

1. Turn on MacBooks: connected to 5Ghz and stay connected

2. Put in sleep mode, wake up MacBooks: stay connected to 5Ghz

3. Did a large file test (3 GB) and stay connected to 5Ghz

4. Turn off MacBook and repeat step 1: connected to 5Ghz

Did this every hours for 4 hours. Some when I use the MacBook as usual (XCode, Word, Safari, etc.). Same result 90% of the time.

The ONLY odd thing (10%): the MacBooks occassionally switched to 2.4Ghz automatically, even when the MacBook was not moved (e.g. stay on my desk). It was connected to 5Ghz then switch to 2.4Ghz and then WILL stay in 2.4 Ghz until I turned-off-turned-on the Wifi. No pattern here.. just switch by itself.

Since it does connect 90% to 5Ghz, I wold say this solve 90% of my problem. 100% will requires 100% 5Ghz connection with 5Ghz-specific SSID, which goes back to my 1st post.

I will get an Amplifi to do comparison with the Orbi, since Amplifi support separate SSID and see which one (Orbi / Amplifi) will work best for me.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-29

Sounds like an improvement.

As I explained earlier, Macbooks will hold whatever connection they have (2.4 GHZ or 5 GHz) until the RSSI signal drops below -75 dB. OSX devices do not roam automatically like the iPhones and iPads.

So, if your Macbooks occassionally dropped the 5 GHz and picked up 2.4 GHz this means the 5 GHz connection was bad temporarily, due to interference.

If you are in an apartment, then it's likely your neighbors have WiFI and their signal is reaching you. At my house on 1/2 acre, I can see four or five other WiFi devices. Did you scan channels with software on your Macbook to see if your neighbors are using the same 5 GHz channel as your Orbi? You can use the built-in Wireless Diagnostics, but other software is better. You need to make sure your Orbi is using a 5 GHz channel that's not being used.

cue003 · ‎2017-01-29

I will be curious to see the results with only the router and no satellites powered on. I wonder if you will get 100% then while still most likely having no dead spots due to the size of your apartment ..unless you have unusual wall placement/composition for transmission from one side of 1200 sq ft to the other.

st_shaw · ‎2017-01-29

@cue003 wrote:
I will be curious to see the results with only the router and no satellites powered on. I wonder if you will get 100% then while still most likely having no dead spots due to the size of your apartment ..unless you have unusual wall placement/composition for transmission from one side of 1200 sq ft to the other.

It appears the OP did this test. See post #15. That result, and the more recent result with all three Orbi units ON, had the same outcome--the Macbooks spontaneoulsy switched from 5 GHz to 2.4 GHz. The only way this would happen is if the 5 GHz signal was temorarily interrupted. This would indicate there is sporadic interference on the 5 GHz band at his location. The OP has not told us yet if he has any potential interfering devices, or if he did a channel scan to detect interference from nearby APs.

ChuckieCheese · ‎2017-01-29

@st_shaw wrote:

So, if your Macbooks occassionally dropped the 5 GHz and picked up 2.4 GHz this means the 5 GHz connection was bad temporarily, due to interference.

If you are in an apartment, then it's likely your neighbors have WiFI and their signal is reaching you. At my house on 1/2 acre, I can see four or five other WiFi devices. Did you scan channels with software on your Macbook to see if your neighbors are using the same 5 GHz channel as your Orbi?

Yes, I selected Channel 40 (see screenshot) as this is the best one. Even though it shows "3" in Channel 4, when I hover my mouse, it shows all my Orbi units (a router and 2 satellite). Other channel are used by neighbor's wifi.

Since I posted the last time, haven't had any intermittent switch to 2.4Ghz (finger crossed).

My speed is hovering around 290-350 Mbps on 5Ghz. Not sure if this is typical, but anyway I can get it close to 800 Mbps (see screenshot for Orbin configuration)? I am only 10 feet away from the router and surrounded by satellites on my left and right side.

anschmid · ‎2017-01-30

Separate SSID for 2.4 and 5GHz channel. I remeber this one. Back in the days when larger hardisk came out everybody had to partition their super large disk into an operation system partition, a data partition and a few other partition as we just couldn't comprehend having so much space and we needed to be able to tell what data was going where of course. As we all know this ended after a while when we ran into problems that we had heaps of space in our data partition but our operating system partition was full to the brink and we had to completely format the hardisk to change it all around.

whsbuss-1 · ‎2017-01-30

I hope you realize that even with separate SSIDs for 2.4 and 5G does not guarantee a better network. I understand your concern with some of your devices dropping 5G and connecting to 2.4G. But when you test the AmpliFi with separate SSIDs be sure you test bandwidth as well. If in fact you have radio interference, your MCS Index will swing up and down more than normal. And it will affect the bandwidth. So staying connected to the 5G may not give you any better efficiency.

Re: Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbp

Orbi: We really need separate SSID for 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz or speed is limited to less than 200 Mbps