Re: Orbi - why can't we change channels on satellites?

molec · ‎2019-01-01

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Users need to remember that the reason why you can't pick channels on the satellites is that they are acting as REPEATERS/Extenders, thus when repeating, they have to be on the same channel as the source wifi signal channel. This doesn't work if the satellites was on a different channel from the source wireless. Repeatersand Extenders work on the same channel for this configuration.

This is circualar reasoning? WHY are the satellites acting as Repeaters/Extenders? It's by design choice of Netgear, I assume.

Ragar99 · ‎2019-01-01

Circular reasoning for sure. Furry, time to take you team Netgear hat off and give up.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-01-01

EIther by NG or the chipset developer or both. Again, for the average home user, simplicity is desured. The less users have to do with there systems, the better. I most cases, there is no need to change channels on the satellites. This is handled by the router.

@molec wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Users need to remember that the reason why you can't pick channels on the satellites is that they are acting as REPEATERS/Extenders, thus when repeating, they have to be on the same channel as the source wifi signal channel. This doesn't work if the satellites was on a different channel from the source wireless. Repeatersand Extenders work on the same channel for this configuration.

This is circualar reasoning? WHY are the satellites acting as Repeaters/Extenders? It's by design choice of Netgear, I assume.

tln741 · ‎2019-01-01

So extensive co-channel interference is a feature, not a bug, for NG.

If that is the case, then NG should make that clear in their documentation so us advanced users do not waste our money on a poorly designed product.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-01-01

Please feel free to post about that here:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/idb-p/idea-exchange-for-home

Good Luck.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@molec wrote:

...........

This is circualar reasoning? WHY are the satellites acting as Repeaters/Extenders? It's by design choice of Netgear, I assume.

Anyone who says that Orbi is a repeater/extender does not know how Orbi works. It's simply not a correct statement.

The orbi Satellites work as access points (APs) in a mesh network and the Orbi Router is the main controller which manages the whole network and controls the roaming of devices between the APs.

This is the main idea of all mesh systems. Some vendors chose to have different channels for every AP but Orbi chose to have one single channel for every band.

The main reason -I think- why Netgear chose this option is to reduce the number of roaming events. Orbi is made for home users and -usually- you will have multiple APs in a relatevely small area so the overlap between the APs is -usually- quite big and therefore devices will keep hopping between the APs if they have different channels (because devices will keep comparing the levels of the signals between the 2 bands of the APs and hop to the AP which has higher level) which will affect the performance of mainly the mobile devices (and consequently the battery life of the devices) and also the performance of the whole netwrork.

By choosing to use the same channel the devices will not need to do too many roaming activities.

On the other hand, in enterprise solutions, the AP's are usually assigned different channels because usually a radio planning is done and the coverage is well studied in advace to make sure the overlap is just enough to cover the whole enterprise.

It's very simple for Netgear to set a channel for every band in Orbi. In fact I tried to set a channel for every satellite in my Orbi (using telnet commands) and had it for couple of hours and I noticed the amount of roamings the devices needed to do. In certain locations of the home one of my static devices made up to 3 roamings per minute while not moving!

So in summary, assigning channels for every AP is good only when you have good radio planning, but otherwise having one single channel is much more effective.

I believe that Netgear can make this as configurable settings, which will mainly benefit those who have big areas to cover, but can give negative impact for people who will use this functionality without enough radio knowledge and tools.

astrojohn · ‎2019-01-01

"..and therefore devices will keep hopping between the APs if they have different channels (because devices will keep comparing the levels of the signals between the 2 bands of the APs and hop to the AP which has higher level)..."

Except they don't. I have cameras literally within a few meters of the satellite and they connect to the main router or satellite 15 meters away through two walls. They don't transition unless I power cycle them. Same with other devices as well. That would lead me to believe I don't need any satellites at all and should never have bought the damn thing - I expected better. It works OK, but seems to be nothing but overkill.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@astrojohn wrote:

.....

Except they don't. I have cameras literally within a few meters of the satellite and they connect to the main router or satellite 15 meters away through two walls. They don't transition unless I power cycle them. Same with other devices as well. That would lead me to believe I don't need any satellites at all and should never have bought the damn thing - I expected better. It works OK, but seems to be nothing but overkill.

This is a device issue (your cameras), nothing to do with Orbi. Those devices are called 'Sticky Devices" and have old bad design that assumes that home users will only have one AP and do not support any type of roaming. I think that new devices are more able to handle the relatively new home mesh systems.

astrojohn · ‎2019-01-01

ALL of my devices?? - nonsense! The cameras are not old, in fact, none of my sticky devices are old.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@astrojohn wrote:

ALL of my devices?? - nonsense! The cameras are not old, in fact, none of my sticky devices are old.

Devices can be new but have old design and thus do not support wifi roaming standards. Please check in the specs of the devices if they support any wifi roaming standards.

In fact , there is no "standard" for the basic wifi roaming, it's left for every device to choose which wifi AP to choose, so most static devices (like cameras) will not support any wifi roaming at all asuming that the camera will not need at all to roam!

This is not to mention the wifi roaming enhancement standards 802.11k, 802.11v and 802.11r which are only supported in new mobile devices (in iPhone from iPhone 6S and above)

Ragar99 · ‎2019-01-01

Are you making this up as you type? "check in the specs of the devices if they support any wifi roaming standards....but there is no standard"?

Does the Arlo Pro camera work correctly with an Orbi?

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@Ragar99 wrote:

Are you making this up as you type? "check in the specs of the devices if they support any wifi roaming standards....but there is no standard"?

........

No, I'm not. Please google this if you doubt it. 🙂

There is no "standard" for wifi roaming. It's up to device vendors to choose the best way they find suitable to implement roaming capability.

It's a basic fact in mobile communications that for Wifi it's only the device who decides when to move from one AP to another, the network (router) only helps in moving the connection smoothly between the AP's if the device decides to move. So if you have a sticky device then it's only the device to blame.

The new standards for roaming enhancement 802.11k and 802.11v only help the device to make a better and quicker decision by providing the device with information about neighboring APs and information about the load on those APs.

The fast roaming standard 802.11r helps in moving the device between the AP's without the need to do the authentication procedure for every move between the APs or bands so the roaming will be faster.

All these standards are supported in Orbi but they also need to be supported by the device to have any effect.

@Ragar99 wrote:

...........

Does the Arlo Pro camera work correctly with an Orbi?

The Arlo Pro supports only 2.4 GHz band, there is no mention in the specs of any roaming capability. Usually single band devices do not support roaming, mainly because they have only one band to operate in and they don't need to move between bands.

In those devices there is a fixed minimum RSSI level that the camera will keep connected to the AP as long this minimum level is maintained. This RSSI level is usually very low so -practically- you need to switch off the AP to which the camera is connected to in order to force it to look for another AP.

I have a Netatmo security camera (4 months old) but it's behaving exactly this way.

tln741 · ‎2019-01-01

802.11 devices should only seek out a stronger signal and associate with that stronger AP when they reach the minimum bps or RSSI threshold set in the AP or the device. The device will not seek out a new AP - even if it is sitting under a very strong AP - until the connection threshold with the old AP is reached (or WiFi is turned off and turned back on for the device). In WLANs with a wireless controller, the controller can also move a device to a new AP based on other thresholds. There is a slight delay (ms) when that switch occurs, especially when a channel change occurs. It still has to disconnect from the one AP and associate with the new AP - each AP has a different MAC. I am not aware of any reduction in this switching if the wifi channel is the same between 2 APs. It is just like unplugging a wired connection from one switch to another - only much faster. This switch to a new AP should only happen when the device is moving (or some other threshold is reached). If stationary devices are switching APs, something is wrong.

But without channel separation, you are guaranteed co-channel interference = collissions, which impacts network performance. Why guaranteed? The Orbi backhaul is 5 Ghz, which is shorter range than 2.4. The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.

A repeater HAS to use the same channel - because the AP only has one radio! The Orbi is not a repeater.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@tln741 wrote:

802.11 devices should only seek out a stronger signal and associate with that stronger AP when they reach the minimum bps or RSSI threshold set in the AP or the device. The device will not seek out a new AP - even if it is sitting under a very strong AP - until the connection threshold with the old AP is reached (or WiFi is turned off and turned back on for the device).........

Exactly!

@tln741 wrote:

........ In WLANs with a wireless controller, the controller can also move a device to a new AP based on other thresholds. .........

The controller can't move a device from one AP to another, it can encourage the device to move but can't force it.

@tln741 wrote:

....... each AP has a different MAC. I am not aware of any reduction in this switching if the wifi channel is the same between 2 APs. It is just like unplugging a wired connection from one switch to another - only much faster. ......

.....

For a device to move from one frequency to another it needs to "scan" and mesure the level of other frequencies and since devices have only one receiver it will put on hold all send/receive of data during this scanning process which takes time and affects both the battery level of the device as well as the speed of the device (as the data movement is practically zero during this short scanning time). This procedure is not needed -by the device- if moving within the same frequency even if the device is actually moving to a different AP with a different MAC.

@tln741 wrote:

......

But without channel separation, you are guaranteed co-channel interference = collissions, which impacts network performance. Why guaranteed? ......

Co-channel interference is price to pay for this design choice and is a compromise taken to optimize the performance. Please tell me how do you see the co-channel interference impact on the performance of your system?

@tln741 wrote:

....... The Orbi backhaul is 5 Ghz, which is shorter range than 2.4. The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.

......

Orbi has a 5 GHz and a 2.4 GHz backhaul. If your 5 GHz backhaul gets heavy distortion Orbi will move to the 2.4 GHz backhaul. Please have a look at this brief description of the Orbi radio https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Understanding-Orbi-Radio-Fronthaul-Backhaul/m-p/1671092#M46569

@tln741 wrote:

....... The Orbis need to be close enough for a good backhaul, so the non-backhaul channels will have significant overlap.

.......

Correct and because of this big overlap choosing different channels for the Orbis will cause a big headache as the devices will just keep moving back and forth.

@tln741 wrote:

............
A repeater HAS to use the same channel - because the AP only has one radio! The Orbi is not a repeater.

Correct

Finally, I would suggest the following reading for more information about wifi roaming http://iie.fing.edu.uy/~gcapde/pub/WiFi_Roaming_7signal_Whitepaper.pdf

tln741 · ‎2019-01-01

I have 1 Orbi satellite on 1st floor (desk #1) and the Orbi Router on the 2nd floor (desk #2) which is directly above desk #1. I do this because I have a printer on the first floor that is networked but not wireless. At desk #2, the Router signal is -33 dBm and I see the satellite at -44 dBm. This creates significant co-channel interference and causes my Sonos to skip songs. If I turn off the Orbi Satellite, the Sonos does not skip

Assigning different channels on the satellite would solve this problem. Most devices likely never ever switch APs in the home, except if they physically move into a fringe coverage area.

But even when moving/roaming, the device still has to meet a signal threshold to trigger a disassociation, disassociate with orbi 1, issue probes and then authenticate and associate with orbi 2. During the probe process, how does a device NOT scan channels? If the threshold to disassociate is met, the device is looking for the BEST signal from the same SSID, not just a better signal on the same channel. It may even decide 2.4G is better than 5G.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@tln741 wrote:

........... This creates significant co-channel interference and causes my Sonos to skip songs. If I turn off the Orbi Satellite, the Sonos does not skip

.......

- How do you have the Sonos speakers connected? Do you use SonosNet (i.e. do you have one speaker or the Sonos Connect Bridge wired to Orbi?)? If that is the case then which channel are you using for SonosNet? In this case the Sonos speakers will be connected using an own mesh network on 2.4 or 5 GHz channel that you choose. If you choose a channel already used by Orbi then you will only have troubles.

- If you are using only Orbi wifi to connect the speakers then I don't see a reason whay you should see such a "skip" issue caused by co-channel interference. I have a mesh audio system from LG (works exactly as Sonos). I have all 10 speakers connected using wifi and they are all working perfectly.

- Please note also that wiring more than one speaker to Orbi will cause loops in the network and will cause you much headaches. If you need to wire speakers you can only wire one and only one speaker.

@tln741 wrote:

........ During the probe process, how does a device NOT scan channels? If the threshold to disassociate is met, the device is looking for the BEST signal from the same SSID, not just a better signal on the same channel. It may even decide 2.4G is better than 5G.

If the device moves between APs on the same channel then it does not need to hold the ongoing tx/rx activity to camp on a nother frequency since it sees both networks on the same frequency, and this makes a big difference.

tln741 · ‎2019-01-01

Sonos One connected wirelessly playing a playlist on my smartphone from the Sonos App.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

@tln741 wrote:

Sonos One connected wirelessly playing a playlist on my smartphone from the Sonos App.

- Ok, so no wired speakers or Sonos bridge at all?

- What type of other wired devices do you have connected to the Satellite? I noticed that the current Orbi software (2.2.1.210) has issues with wired devices and can be sensitive to some devices, please test -for troubleshooting purposes- to disconnect all wired devices and see if you see any improvement,

- The levels of the signals from your router and satellite show that the AP's are too close to each other or the overlapping is too big. For this situation it's recommended to reduce the power of the radio band to reduce the overlapping. Have you tried to reduce the tx power?

tln741 · ‎2019-01-01

Android smartphone. Apple did appear to have a lockout issue. Sonos is saying the issue appears that the Sonos is losing connection to the phone over wifi.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

As I mentioned above, please try changing the band's channel to another channel and/or try to reduce the transmission power of the nodes.

randomousity · ‎2019-01-01

Yes, there are only three non-overlapping channels. The question is, when 1, 6, and 11 are all already in use by neighbors, which channel makes the most sense for a router to automatically select? Pick 1, and have 100% overlap with an existing network, or pick, say, 3, which has partial overlap? With four routers all within range of each other, the optimal assignments would probably be 1, 4, 7, and 11, as those all maximize the distance between neighboring in-use channels. I used to live in an apartment where I could pick up 20-30 networks on my laptop. I don't know the breakdown of 2.4G and 5G networks, but there aren't enough channels for everyone to have a non-overlapping one, and splitting everyone between 1, 6, and 11 would result in an even worse experience than using all 11 channels. That's just the reality of modern living and a limited number of channels.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-01

In case of neighbouring channel interference then I'd choose:

- Obviously, the channel with less received power from the neighbours. Imagine that you have many people in a room talking the same language but with low volume. The disturbance is minimal

- The channels with less load (less traffic), a network with no or little load has almost no effect on your network even if it has high received power. If you take the same example of the room with people talking the same language but not talking at all or talking very few words! 🙂 Disturbance is minimal here again!

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-01-02

When you have cases of wifi congestion, even on the primary channel, thankfully some router Mfr give users the ability to power the power output of there radios so you can work in a congested wifi area and limit your wifi foot print in this kind of condition. This helps with operating of your system in a congested area. Sometimes it's just the limitation of the 2.4Ghz band and channels which is set forth by our federal workers that we have to deal with. I don't see them changing this anytime soon.

@randomousity wrote:

Yes, there are only three non-overlapping channels. The question is, when 1, 6, and 11 are all already in use by neighbors, which channel makes the most sense for a router to automatically select? Pick 1, and have 100% overlap with an existing network, or pick, say, 3, which has partial overlap? With four routers all within range of each other, the optimal assignments would probably be 1, 4, 7, and 11, as those all maximize the distance between neighboring in-use channels. I used to live in an apartment where I could pick up 20-30 networks on my laptop. I don't know the breakdown of 2.4G and 5G networks, but there aren't enough channels for everyone to have a non-overlapping one, and splitting everyone between 1, 6, and 11 would result in an even worse experience than using all 11 channels. That's just the reality of modern living and a limited number of channels.

molec · ‎2019-01-02

@ekhalil wrote:

@molec wrote:

...........

This is circualar reasoning? WHY are the satellites acting as Repeaters/Extenders? It's by design choice of Netgear, I assume.

Anyone who says that Orbi is a repeater/extender does not know how Orbi works. It's simply not a correct statement.

The orbi Satellites work as access points (APs) in a mesh network and the Orbi Router is the main controller which manages the whole network and controls the roaming of devices between the APs.

This is the main idea of all mesh systems. Some vendors chose to have different channels for every AP but Orbi chose to have one single channel for every band.

The main reason -I think- why Netgear chose this option is to reduce the number of roaming events.

Is this the reason why I'm sitting next to one of the satellites still connected to the base station at -65dB and a latency of 3 seconds?

> By choosing to use the same channel the devices will not need to do too many roaming activities.

but I WANT them to!

> I believe that Netgear can make this as configurable settings, which will mainly benefit those who have big areas to cover, but can give negative impact for people who will use this functionality without enough radio knowledge and tools.

what's wrong with CHOICE? I think the NG devs are just lazy and/or incompetent at this point.

ekhalil · ‎2019-01-02

@molec wrote:

............

Is this the reason why I'm sitting next to one of the satellites still connected to the base station at -65dB and a latency of 3 seconds?

............

Yes, it's the devices' choice

@molec wrote:
> By choosing to use the same channel the devices will not need to do too many roaming activities.

but I WANT them to!

......

Again, it's the devices choice to move or not to move! For devices that choose to move it's better to minimize the roaming events as much as possible. For sticky devices the router has not much to do.

@molec wrote:

......
what's wrong with CHOICE? I think the NG devs are just lazy and/or incompetent at this point.

Yes, giving the choice can be good!