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My Ethernet Backhaul Setup
Sorry in advance for the long post.
I have been following this forum as an observer for quite a while now, and have noticed that many people are having issues with their Orbi setup, either when using the wireless backhaul, or when using the wired backhaul. I have owned my Orbi system (RBK53 from Costco) for several months now, and with the recent firmware updates, I have had no issues with either backhaul setup. I spent a couple weeks in the beginning troubleshooting my particular setup (determining which channel to use because the airwaves are flooded in my neighborhood, finding the right position for the satellites and router in the house, reserving IPs for finicky devices, etc.), and thought I would share my results, here, in the hopes that it would help my fellow Orbi users troubleshoot some of the issues they may be having with their setup.
Here is a diagram of my current network:
My house is a fairly large, 2 story home, and as you can see, I have a good number of wired and wireless devices connected at any given time. The router and the satellites are spread out to the far ends of the house in a 3D triangle formation (Router and Satellite on the 2nd floor, opposite ends of house relative to each other; Satellite on the 1st floor opposite end of house relative to 2nd floor units). Each of the satellites has an IP reservation of 192.168.1.2 and .3. MU-MIMO and Daisy Chain are disabled for this configuration, and Fast Roaming and Implicit Beamforming are enabled for my mobile devices. I have noticed that my Apple devices are more likely to connect to the closest AP/Router if Fast Roaming is enabled, and implicit beamforming seems to provide better throughput overall for my wireless devices. The 2.4GHz channel is set at 1 (my neighbors have flooded the 1,6, and 11 spectrum with fewer having selected channel 1). The 5GHz channel is set at 40, which, thankfully, is not used at all by any of my neighbors. The system is connected to Xfinity Gigabit internet, with the XB6 modem set in bridge mode and with its xfinity wifi hotspot disabled. As my home is pre-wired with Cat6 cable runs, I have an 8-port unmanaged switch distributing ethernet connections to the rest of the house. Both Satellites connect directly to this switch. I have another 5-port unmanaged switch connected to one of the satellites, which connects to my main room's media devices.
Initially, I had the satellites connect to the router via the wireless backhaul, and everything was fairly stable. I experienced only the occasional device disconnect or system reset with the earlier firmware, and it became more stable with the recent versions. If I did a speed test while connected wirelessly on my Macbook Air, I was seeing roughly 300-400Mb down and ~25Mb up. My iMac, connected via ethernet directly to the RBR50, would post the expected 800-900Mb down and 40-60Mb up. After converting the system to wired backhaul, I noticed a good improvement to my wireless devices. My Macbook Air now showed 500-600Mb downstream and 40-60Mb upstream.
So far, everything is running smoothly with the wired backhaul. The current layout of the 3D triangle (I don't know how better to describe it), the IP reservation for the satellites, and the different wireless settings seem to result in the best performance for this system. When I had tried putting the RBR50 centrally in the house, with the satellites on opposite ends, I was getting very unstable results (the units were probably too close to each other and their signals were interfering). I understand that everyone has a different shaped home, but if you can, I would suggest this triangle formation and the settings I have used.
I hope this helps.
45 Replies
My home network's layout is similar to yours. My home is wired, and I have so many unmanaged switches I've lost count. I think 7 off the top of my head, all different brands and models. Wherever possible, I prefer wired connections to wireless; if a device has an Ethernet jack, it's plugged in.
I found the Orbi RBR50 lacking in routing features, and demoted it to access point, placing my Asus AC68U back into service. This setup works well for me, with each component doing what it does best.
With the Orbis in my setup, the word I'd use to describe it is "metastable." It works great unless any of the Orbis is disturbed, then my network crashes in a horrible mess (as in no device can ping any other device) and needs at least 30 minutes of manual intervention to restore to service. This never happened with my previous wireless access points (one Asus, one Netgear) which the Orbi satellites replaced.
Do you find your network can recover itself after a power glitch?
adjective: metastable-
(of a state of equilibrium) stable provided it is subjected to no more than small disturbances.
RocketSquirrel, 7 switches?!!! How many devices do you have?! Like you, I definitely prefer a wired connection over wireless if I can manage it.
Since I posted my setup back in July, I too have experienced the problem with Orbi losing all functionality when the power goes out. We had some rolling brown outs where I am that totally froze my Orbi system. I could probably get around this by connecting the main unit and the satellites each to a UPS, but that would be expensive and not worth the headache of explaining to the wife why there was a big ugly box next to the table that had the Orbi. For now, I will just do the power cycle dance to bring everything back up if it freezes. As long as there is no power fluctuation, I don't have a problem with the wired backaul, and these brown outs are pretty rare in my area.
I like the idea of using the ASUS router in place of the Orbi (setting to AP mode). The Orbi router functions are nowhere close to what my old router was capable of. I have an ASUS RT-AC88U that the Orbi replaced, so I may try that and update my post if it works well. Other than turning off the wi-fi on the 88U, any other tips or tricks to modify my setup?
SeaMonkey80 wrote:
RocketSquirrel, 7 switches?!!! How many devices do you have?! Like you, I definitely prefer a wired connection over wireless if I can manage it.
Since I posted my setup back in July, I too have experienced the problem with Orbi losing all functionality when the power goes out. We had some rolling brown outs where I am that totally froze my Orbi system. I could probably get around this by connecting the main unit and the satellites each to a UPS, but that would be expensive and not worth the headache of explaining to the wife why there was a big ugly box next to the table that had the Orbi. For now, I will just do the power cycle dance to bring everything back up if it freezes. As long as there is no power fluctuation, I don't have a problem with the wired backaul, and these brown outs are pretty rare in my area.
I like the idea of using the ASUS router in place of the Orbi (setting to AP mode). The Orbi router functions are nowhere close to what my old router was capable of. I have an ASUS RT-AC88U that the Orbi replaced, so I may try that and update my post if it works well. Other than turning off the wi-fi on the 88U, any other tips or tricks to modify my setup?
7 switches seems more reasonable when you realize that every room in my house that has Ethernet has at least 2 devices in it, hence the need for a switch.
Switch 1: in the home run network closet, fed directly from main Orbi
Switch 2: in the office to split off the printer
Switch 3: also in the office so I only have to run 1 cable across the floor to 2 computers
Switch 4: in master bedroom to feed TV & Blu-ray player
Switch 5: in second bedroom downstream of Orbi satellite to run only 1 cable to TV & Blu-ray player
Switch 6: in family room to feed Control4 system (left by previous owner) which runs whole-house audio and local family room TV & audio
Switch 7: in my home theater downstream of Orbi satellite #2 to run all the devices there
Switches number 3 & 5 are optional just to avoid extra cables.
Re expense of UPSes, these $40 ones will work. Compare to the cost of Orbis and the pain of doing the power cycle dance. In my 4800 sq ft home, the dance is more of a run from one end to the other and up and down stairs watching for rings to turn from white to blue.
Of course, with all these powered switches, most of them die during a power outage. I haven't yet run the experiment to see whether the Orbis on UPSes revert to wireless backhaul when the wired switches lose power.
No tricks to using the Asus router as a router and the Orbi as a WAP. Just turn off the router's WiFi, connect the Orbi to the Asus WAN-to-LAN, and put the Orbi into AP mode.
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The wireless back haul works for most configurations. The one issue that seems to cause problems are these managed switches and or IGMP protocls on them. As long and users use non managed switches, preferred or disable this IGMP protocol on thre managed switches, should be good. Also the use of good quality cabling is recommended. CAT6.
I have 3 non managed switches in between my 1 satellite thats wired back haul. Working with out problems. I did find that setting the satellite(s) on a reserved IP address is recommended. Including all other devices that need router management.
Also find that setting a smaller DHCP IP address pool works as well. I use .100 thru .200. Leaves me room on either side for static IP address assigned devices like printers, cameras, NAS and controllers. Items that don't need much router management.
UPDATE from OP:
I have modified my setup from the original post to include my ASUS RT-AC88U as the main router. The 88U has wifi disabled (I even disconnected all four antennae to be safe) and the Orbi is now functioning in AP mode with the satellites connected via wired backhaul.
I am finding that this setup is even better than before. Devices are running smoothly, and wireless signal is strong all around the house and outside. One snag I ran into when I was first connecting everything together was that the satellites would not porperly sync after switching to AP mode. I tried rebooting everything several times, but still could not get the satellites properly synced with the RBR50.
After about an hour of this plug-unplug-reset dance, I finally had success. When I logged into the Orbi through the web browser (forget about using the app; it is dumb and does not do anything useful), then went to ADVANCED -> ADMINISTRATION -> ATTACHED DEVICES, the satellites showed as disconnected, so I thought "what the hell, why not just push that 'REMOVE DEVICE' button next to each satellite." "What's the worst that could happen?" In fact, that was the best thing to do. I then hit the SYNC button on the back of the router, followed by the SYNC button on the back of the Satellite (setup each fully, one at a time), and the Satellite connected perfectly with wireless backhaul. Once I got the blue light of success, I plugged in the ethernet cable, and boom, it converted to wired backhaul without a problem and without a delay. Repeated with the second satellite, and result was same.
I have now been up and running with the ASUS RT-AC88U -> RBR50 (AP mode) -> RBS50 (x2; wired backhaul) for 6 days now without any issues. [NOTE: The Orbi router (AP Mode) and the Satellites have static IPs 192.168.1.2-4]. Thankfully, there have been no power outages, so everything is stable and still connected. All my devices are being routed correctly, no device has shown signs of random disconnects, and I have more control of my network with the 88U as the routing workhorse.
So far so good.
I'm attempting to use an RBR50 with 2 RBS50 satelites with a wired backhaul. I agree with one of the posters above about the setup being "metastable". Some times it works, sometimes it doesn't. If I power cycle after a problem, it seems that any wired connection to the RBR50 works, but wifi to either the RBR or RBS units fails to connect.
I'm pretty disappointed as this was an expensive setup, and my initial elation at having a strong wifi signal throughout the house has faded away. I'm wasting hours of time rebooting routers, and trying to get everything running which lasts for a day or two, then I'm running around the house plugging and unplugging devices hoping that one of the power cycles will fix it.
BTW, running 2.1.4.16 firmware
ed-m, when you power cycle the Orbi system, are you keeping the satellites plugged in via the ethernet cables to the RBR50? If so, then this is probably why it is not connecting properly to your wireless clients. Whenever you do the reset dance, you should unplug the ethernet cables linking the orbis together, and have it connect to the wireless backhaul first. Then, once the satellite is connected and synced with the RBR50, plug in the ethernet cable and it should switch over to wired backhaul.
I have almost the same set up as you. Do you have xfininty alarm? I was told if i put the xfiinty XB6 in bridge mode that my alarm will not communicate. I think it uses a hidden wifi channel to communicate with the modem. I noteced there was a RJ45 jack on the back of my touchpanel. Maybe i can hard wire it?
joelg wrote:
I have almost the same set up as you. Do you have xfininty alarm? I was told if i put the xfiinty XB6 in bridge mode that my alarm will not communicate. I think it uses a hidden wifi channel to communicate with the modem. I noteced there was a RJ45 jack on the back of my touchpanel. Maybe i can hard wire it?
I do have the Xfinity Home alarm system, but my touchpad came with a dedicated netgear router that communicates wirelessly with the touchpad. I have had this netgear home alarm router connected to my personal router (meaning it is behind my firewall) without ever having an issue with connectivity. If you have Xfinity cameras connected to your security system, then you will have to setup DMZ for your home alarm router so that all ports are accessible by Comcast.
If you did not get this separate netgear router when your alarm system was initially setup, and the XB6 is communicating with your touchpad directly, then you will have the issue of losing the home alarm connectivity when switching to bridge mode.
As for the RJ45 jack on the back of the touchpad, I have tried it and it has never worked for me.
Hi -your network is very similar to the one I setup in my home.
when I log into the router as admin, all the clients indicate that’s they are connected to the router, and not the satellite.
Do I need to change some of the router settings because my two satellites are connected wireline through the Ethernet backhaul in my home?
Sorry if I’m not making sense, I’m just a dad trying to placate the family complaining about slow WiFi.
LEDMAN888 wrote:
Hi -your network is very similar to the one I setup in my home.
when I log into the router as admin, all the clients indicate that’s they are connected to the router, and not the satellite.
Do I need to change some of the router settings because my two satellites are connected wireline through the Ethernet backhaul in my home?
Sorry if I’m not making sense, I’m just a dad trying to placate the family complaining about slow WiFi.
Hi LEDMAN888, no worries. I understand your issue, as I am experiencing it in the GUI myself with my setup. Ever since the recent update, this has been an issue. Because it is wired to the router, any device connected to the network either to the Satellite or Main unit, will show as being connected to the Orbi Router. If you login directly to either of the Satellites (use their IP address), the GUI will properly show the connected devices to that unit. Also, I have noticed that if you connect via wireless backhaul, you will see that the Main Orbi GUI shows the proper connection states. Netgear will need to figure this out.
As for your slow internet issue, what settings do you currently have? Make sure that daisy chain is disabled. Try disabling MU-MIMO as well (I have it on as I have a few devices that are acapable of MU-MIMO). Also, set your wi-fi channels to fixed channels rather than auto. I used my Mac's wireless diagnostic software to find which channels my neighbors were using so I could select an unused (or not as used) channel. Flooded wifi channels will decrease your speed. Also, I disabled the setting in Advanced Wireless settings relating to neighbor coexistence (I cannot remember what it is called at the moment). It forces your 2.4Ghz radio to use 40MHz channel width. This really helped my 2.4Ghz devices. I have Fast Roaming on as my Apple devices worked better in this configuration with that setting enabled. Hope this helps you troubleshoot.
SeaMonkey80 - that was super helpful.
I really appreciate your input.
I disabled the daisy-chain, MIMO, and 2.4Ghz settings.
And I did login directly to the satellites to see what which devices were connected to the satelite..
Everything seems to be working fine now.
Thanks for your help.
One other question. I have 3 Denon Wireless Amps sitting in a closet on the second floor.
I have my Obi router sitting on the first floor, one satellite on the second floor, and one satellite on the third floor. Is it normal for the Amps to be connecting randomly between the router on the first floor and the satellite on the second floor?
Truly thankful...
Thanks very much for your clear schema.
What I noticed is that everything is 'behind' the Orbi router. Is that necessary?
Do you know if it also works if for instance the 'TL-SG108' switch would have been between the 'XFinity XB6' and the Orbi router?
The reason I ask is this: I had the setup that I had a cable directly from the modem into the Orbi router. When I plugged in my TV-settop-box in the Orbi, I had hickups in the TV stream. So it surprised me a bit that you managed to get it working with 'all your internet devices' behind the Orbi router.
michel1918 wrote:
........
Do you know if it also works if for instance the 'TL-SG108' switch would have been between the 'XFinity XB6' and the Orbi router?
........If you connect the switch to the ISP router then you can't connect the satellites to (unless you want Orbi to be in AP Mode).
michel1918 wrote:
.......
The reason I ask is this: I had the setup that I had a cable directly from the modem into the Orbi router. When I plugged in my TV-settop-box in the Orbi, I had hickups in the TV stream. So it surprised me a bit that you managed to get it working with 'all your internet devices' behind the Orbi router.What is the type of the TV settop-box that you have? Does it do any IGMP multicasting?
Yes, I do want it to work like an AP, so that woudln't be a problem.
The settop box I'll have to check, the ' Does it do any IGMP multicasting' is not in my vocubalary :-)
Orbi doesn't like managed or green ethernet switches.
Your model switch seems to support green tech and some IGMP protocols seen on managed switches:
- Green Ethernet technology saves power consumption
- IEEE 802.3x flow control provides reliable data transfer
- Steel housing, desktop or wall-mounting design
- Support 802.1p/DSCP QoS and IGMP Snooping function
If you can disable these features, the switch may work with Orbi, if not, I recommend trying a switch that is not managed, or has any green ethernet features. NG's GS105/108 series should be reviewed.
michel1918 wrote:
Thanks very much for your clear schema.
What I noticed is that everything is 'behind' the Orbi router. Is that necessary?
Do you know if it also works if for instance the 'TL-SG108' switch would have been between the 'XFinity XB6' and the Orbi router?
The reason I ask is this: I had the setup that I had a cable directly from the modem into the Orbi router. When I plugged in my TV-settop-box in the Orbi, I had hickups in the TV stream. So it surprised me a bit that you managed to get it working with 'all your internet devices' behind the Orbi router.
