"OS6" - a question or three

Why don't you see by yourself ? Netgear has a VM for that ;)
http://apps.readynas.com/pages/?page_id=143
This VM fully works for virtualbox. My ESX server boots it with LSI SAS driver but the interface for drives volume is showing only one disk, so you can't test the raid modes.
You can update the VM to the latest software if you want, it should work.

I don't have a NAS with a 4.x version to give you more detailed informations, but I think/hope the VM will give you every answer you need.

garyd9 wrote:
"If you want to protect your data against the failure of two disks, you must switch to Flex-RAID and select RAID 6." Is this true and accurate?

Yes. Though switching to flex-raid doesn't require a factory reset (unlike OS4).

garyd9 wrote:

Second, a more general question: There doesn't seem to be a post or document that simply describes what has changed between the version 4 software and the new OS6 software. I've seen a couple of threads where people have tried to ask this, but they seem to go unanswered (besides people mentioning that ext3/4 limits are removed with btrfs, and that btrfs supports all kinds of wonderful things that isn't actually supported in the netgear product such as self-healing.) So, skipping all the marketing hype or netgear add-on stuff such as clouds, genies, and purple smoke in lamps, what does OS6 offer a person or business over the RAIDiator 4 firmware? Please don't include anything that doesn't already exist. (Promises for things that might happen in the future are great, but if they don't ALREADY exist, I have to assume the promises are as empty as the raidiator 4 promise of putting back snapshot resizing.)

xeltros made an excellent suggestion - it is worthwhile to test drive the GUI.

I use OS4 on my pro-6 (and an NV+ v1 and duo v1), and OS6 on an RN102 which I use for backup.

The OS6 GUI is more modern than the OS4 GUI - though frankly that doesn't matter that much to me.

Operationally, OS6 has AntiVirus protection, and snapshots that actually do something useful for me. The kernel is much newer, which has advantages if you want to load your own packages, and is possibly good for security.

BTRFS is designed to be more robust than ext4, so it is less likely to get corrupted due to unexpected power loss, etc - but that is not something I am inclined to test. I can understand why you might be skeptical about that (though the robustness isn't really about the self-healing stuff).

BTRFS built-in file checksums are nice, even if there is no magic healing. Today I create SFV files in every media folder directory I have (some thousands) so I can verify files. I wouldn't need that if all my file systems had the checksums.

OS6 is missing a couple of features I have on the pro-6 - for instance, I can send a WoL packet to a MAC address in an OS4 backup job, but I can't do that with OS6. Disk Spin down isn't there yet (which I suspect you've already seen). I can't schedule scrubs or file system checks yet. The GUI won't let me reset file owner/group and permissions the way I want to reset them. I use all those features, and would miss them if I switched to OS6.

Is it worth switching to OS6 on a functional PRO running OS4? In my opinion its not (and I haven't). Though others here obviously do (and have). What might change my mind about switching on my Pro ? Some more features, and not losing Netgear support.

Am I happy overall with OS6? Yes. It's been stable, and I think it will work out well as the going forward platform. Having one platform that runs on both ARM and x86 is good for users, not just for Netgear.

Having one platform that runs on both ARM and x86 is good for users, not just for Netgear.

I totally agree. It is also better for app developers.

What you said about the built in checksum is interesting, did you enable it ? I'd be curious about the performance implication for a 102/104. I know the antivirus is already a killer for performance with the weak ARM CPU, I would expect checksum to be even worst.

Snapshots is definitely a wonderful feature.

BTRFS has some neat tricks in his pockets and it's not excluded that Netgear put them to use in some 6.3 or 6.4 update. I think the compression system already uses the BTRFS mechanism for example. Since Netgear has some good relationship with BTRFS team, I'm pretty sure we will get "bleeding edge" (when stable and tested, so not that bleeding edge but still...).
I have the feeling that Netgear made choices with OS6 for the long run.

Thanks for the reply with answers. Testing a demo on a VM isn't something I wanted to get into right now.

Basically, I'm having a dilemma: I have 3 Pro BE boxes. One is out of warranty, and the others are still within the 5 years (but will expire over the next 18 months or so.) Like a complete idiot, I actually believed the firmware release notes for the past 4 to 5 years stating that snapshot resizing would be re-enabled, so I've kept hoping that Netgear wasn't lying to me. Apparently, they were.

So, I'm evaluating what I'm going to do now. As they drop out of warranty, the boxes are much less useful to me. One of the primary reasons for spending the extra money on the BE boxes was the 5 year warranty. I always knew that if a p/s died or something, I'd get it repaired or replaced from netgear. As well, I could put the RAID sets into one of the other devices to extract the data. (Yes, I have backups, but its on extremely slow and inconvenient media.) Being that new ReadyNAS devices are using an incompatible OS, I can't even reliably purchase a new replacement box to drop the existing drives into without erasing everything.

Combining all this, I need to start planning for cycling these boxes out of use. That means either staying with netgear or moving to a different NAS product completely. Right now, I'm bitter that Netgear has abandoned the devices I still have (and are still under warranty) without re-enabling a feature that I purchased with the devices. In case I haven't made it obvious yet, I think my bitterness is mostly about Netgear promising to re-enable the feature for years, but it's been a lie. That has me leaning away from anything with a "netgear" brand on it.

On the other hand, these boxes have served me well over the past several years. I had one warranty "advanced replacement" without too much hassle (once I got past the script jockey when calling for tech support), and I had another die from a lightning strike on the building. (Happily, the 6 drive RAID inside was in perfect condition once I put the drives in another box.) That's a pretty good track record for me.

So, I'm trying to look past my bitterness and to evaluate what's different with "OS6" when compared to what I've been using. What will I lose and what will I gain. From what I can tell, I'll gain more flexibility in expanding the RAID and useful snapshots, but I'll lose dual redundancy and scheduled scrubs. (Or, I can retain dual redundancy, but lose some flexibility in expanding the RAID.) For me, the NAS is about FAST and RELIABLE data access across a gigabit network. Drives spinning down doesn't mean anything to me (I have it disabled on the Pro BE boxes.) As well, anything with the word "cloud" in it is actually a negative and would be disabled. Beyond the fluff, are there any other actual differences?

Even though I'm trying to get past my bitterness, I have to assume that any feature that doesn't exist TODAY will never exist no matter what promises are made, and that Netgear might even take a feature or two away from me. Netgear has proven that this is one of the "hidden costs" of doing business with them.

So, that's why I was hoping that someone could make it simple and describe "what's different."

(Please pardon me if the post is a bit long winded and repetitive.)

Gary

I do have checksums enabled but haven't seen performance issues. I am running jbod, not raid - which could matter. Though another recent post suggested that the checksums might actually not turn off, no matter how the GUI is set.

I started with the SFV files years ago when I lost a main disk and then discovered that the backup (optical) had read errors. Being able to verify the data if I wanted to seemed like a good idea going forward. It'd be hard to do on the photos and documents, since they aren't as regularly organized. But the audio and video libraries are (one folder per album, etc), so I just make them as I rip things.

I have antivirus turned off. The PCs have AV protection, so I don't see the need for it. And on the ARM the performance penalty is significant.

File system compression is another OS6 feature that OS4 doesn't have. I don't have it on though (it helps for documents, but not media that is already compressed).

I think that if you call tech support they may be able to migrate the data to a new NAS model if you put the unit in tech support mode. Not totally sure about that so you might as well ask them directly but if this is true this may have some importance on your choice I guess. Of course I will always advise a factory reset when possible.

You should also know that a major version is on its way. We don't know what will be in it (except for disk spin down) but we know that it should appear soon (apparently there won't be 6.1.10 unless there are security threats between the 6.1.9 release (actually RC11) and the 6.2.0, I believe this would put 6.2.0 to the end of the year or the beginning of the new one, no official date though). I would advise to wait till then before making a choice if this is possible. You will then have the complete list of the new functions and you will know what to do then.

I also believe that Netgear has another OS called readyDATA. Maybe a version over a ZFS filesystem would be a better fit ? This actually is the version that is aimed towards professionals, so you may have less eyecandy and more NAS professional features in it. I don't know much about it though.

I know that scheduled defrag / scrub has been asked (as a matter of fact, I sent a shopping list to Netgear before my 3 months chat ended and this was on it ;) I was told this was transmitted but have no idea if they will implement it or not and has you said we shouldn't count on it).

As for speed higher end desktop models have 10Gbit Ethernet and xeon CPU with 16Gb ram... Haven't had a look to rack models but I'm pretty sure they are also packed with lots of good things.

@stephen, ok, I may give it a go before updating to 6.2.0 (I plan to factory reset after the update anyway)

garyd9 wrote:
Like a complete idiot, I actually believed the firmware release notes for the past 4 to 5 years stating that snapshot resizing would be re-enabled, so I've kept hoping that Netgear wasn't lying to me. Apparently, they were.

It's possible it could be re-enabled, but you'd need to be really good at doing a defrag. Shrinking a filesystem isn't very safe. You can backup your data, do a factory default, chose a different snapshot space allocation in RAIDar and confirm your choice. So you aren't stuck with the one snapshot space size forever.

I had conversations with NETGEAR over the years before I joined where they stated that they were aiming to re-enable it in different releases, but obviously they never were able to get it re-enabled safely.

garyd9 wrote:
As well, I could put the RAID sets into one of the other devices to extract the data. (Yes, I have backups, but its on extremely slow and inconvenient media.) Being that new ReadyNAS devices are using an incompatible OS, I can't even reliably purchase a new replacement box to drop the existing drives into without erasing everything.

You can put the drives into one of your other Pro BEs or if you don't have one any more you can move your disks into e.g. a 316 or 516.

Optional steps:
1. Put a spare (must not be from your array) disk into the 316 or 516
2. Update the firmware to latest
3. Verify firmware update was successful
4. Power down and remove spare disk

Steps:
1. Move disks across from Pro BE to 316/516
2. Power on doing a NORMAL boot.
3. Login to NAS and copy off all data
4. Factory default (wipes all data, settings, everything)
5. Restore data from backup

If this doesn't work support can help you recover your data. They have a low-level diagnostic mode they can use to help you copy off your data (assuming the array is fine, if there is a problem with the RAID array then a data recovery contract may be required).

If your Pro BEs are still working I'd still use at least some of them for backup duties if you get a new NAS if I were you.

garyd9 wrote:
So, I'm trying to look past my bitterness and to evaluate what's different with "OS6" when compared to what I've been using. What will I lose and what will I gain. From what I can tell, I'll gain more flexibility in expanding the RAID and useful snapshots, but I'll lose dual redundancy and scheduled scrubs. (Or, I can retain dual redundancy, but lose some flexibility in expanding the RAID.)

I use dual-redundancy.

What I did:
1. Do a factory default
2. Disable X-RAID
3. Delete the volume
4. Create a new RAID-6 volume with the same name 'data'
5. Re-enable X-RAID
6. Create the default shares manually

You can click a button to start a scrub on OS6 whereas on 4.2.x you could do them on a schedule. It would be nice to have both options on OS6.

You can also click a button to start a defrag on OS6.

garyd9 wrote:
For me, the NAS is about FAST and RELIABLE data access across a gigabit network. Drives spinning down doesn't mean anything to me (I have it disabled on the Pro BE boxes.) As well, anything with the word "cloud" in it is actually a negative and would be disabled. Beyond the fluff, are there any other actual differences?

The 516 is much faster with a dual-core Ivy Bridge CPU. So if you want fast, the 516 is a step up again.

garyd9 wrote:
Even though I'm trying to get past my bitterness, I have to assume that any feature that doesn't exist TODAY will never exist no matter what promises are made, and that Netgear might even take a feature or two away from me. Netgear has proven that this is one of the "hidden costs" of doing business with them.

When the snapshot size resizing feature was taken away it was taken away at the same time as significant new features were added e.g. 64-bit kernel, initial support for EXT4 and more.

Features are never removed lightly. We don't remove features unless absolutely necessary.

I would also add that support for 3TB+ capacity drives was added in 4.2.16. This was a major change that required lots of development work and testing to make sure it worked smoothly no matter which previous version of RAIDiator you last did a factory default on. There's also support for 4k sector partition aligned drives which came in 4.2.12.

garyd9 wrote:
I have to assume that any feature that doesn't exist TODAY will never exist no matter what promises are made

Personally I assume that on every purchase (no matter who the vendor is). I'll happily take improvements/new features if they show up, but I think its a huge mistake to anticipate them at purchase.

garyd9 wrote:
I think my bitterness is mostly about Netgear promising to re-enable the feature for years, but it's been a lie.

I do get that, and carrying the "we will reenable" message for years from one release to the next was a mistake on their part. It would have been better for them to simply admit that they couldn't fix it safely. I don't think they were betraying you, and I think they had good intentions to re-enable it back in the day, but I do see your point. I agree they've had no real plans to enable it for a while - they were just carrying forward an old release note without much thought. Though you did say in another post that you only would have needed it rarely, and managed ok without it. So I can't help but think you are over-reacting on this.

garyd9 wrote:

So, I'm trying to look past my bitterness and to evaluate what's different with "OS6" when compared to what I've been using. What will I lose and what will I gain. From what I can tell, I'll gain more flexibility in expanding the RAID and useful snapshots, but I'll lose dual redundancy and scheduled scrubs. (Or, I can retain dual redundancy, but lose some flexibility in expanding the RAID.) For me, the NAS is about FAST and RELIABLE data access across a gigabit network. Drives spinning down doesn't mean anything to me (I have it disabled on the Pro BE boxes.) As well, anything with the word "cloud" in it is actually a negative and would be disabled. Beyond the fluff, are there any other actual differences?

Well, part of the answer is that you don't need to rush your purchases, since everything is running fine. So you can take another look in a few months, when 6.2 arrives. My warranty is up on the NV+ and duo (which back up some pro-6 shares), and I see no reason to take them out of service as long as they show no signs of distress.

I gave you the rest of my answer. You should get a more robust file system (which is admittedly hard to quantify). You get useful snapshots, file checksums, antivirus protection, file system compression, a newer kernel which can be updated with security patches without as much back-porting.

In 6.2 you should get some more things - if that's out when you need to buy, then take them into account. If not, then don't.

In any event, on your next buy you shouldn't be comparing OS4 to OS6. You should be comparing ReadyNAS with its competition. Fixating on OS4 is a mistake.

I think I'm going to grab the Pro BE I have that's already out of warranty and modify it a bit. I might be moving a bit out of topic for the "presales" section, but it's actually for the purpose of presales...

If I took that older Pro BE box (not Pro 6), swapped out the CPU with an E6700 (which seems to be the highest performing dual core processor known to work on that box regardless of which MB revision is in there), swapped the 1x1GB DDR2 out with 2x2GB sticks, and put OS6 on it (which would void the warranty that's already expired)... would that give me something comparable to the newer 516 box? I realize I'd still be missing some hardware interfaces such as USB3 and eSATA. However, in day to day use as a network attached storage device (and not for things like transcoding) would it be nearly the same as a stock 516? Perhaps a clearer question would be if such a converted box would be representative of what I'd get in purchasing a 516.

Jumping back to the dual redundancy and OS6... The method used to get that working with xraid2 is interesting. So set things up with flex-raid raid6 and then just convert it intact to xraid2?

Oh, and on the 516, can a eSATA drive be used for backing up the array? Or can they only be used for expanding the array?

For the raid scrubbing on a schedule issue: Can the raid scrubbing be initiated via a command line? If so, would it be feasible to just create a cron job to kick it on a schedule? That would probably suffice as a work-around for a validation check I've become accustomed to.

@Mdgm, from the descriptions above and what I've seen in my PM box, it appears that I'd be able to use a newly purchased 516 box to at least get the data off a Radiator4 array in a pinch. Not as clean as a replacement pre-OS6 box (which would just take over the array natively), but at least doable. That's helpful.

@StephenB, I appreciate the suggestion to just wait and see what might happen with a new OS6 version, but I'm being pressured to come up with a plan to cycle out the BE's before the end of the year. (It doesn't help that my primary job is software development, so I'm really only able to work on this NAS stuff on my supposedly free time.)

Thanks
Gary

E-SATA can be used to plug normal disks and "External storage E-SATA (back)" is listed under the backup section. I think USB3 is faster than E-sata though.

If you are able to get a equivalent CPU, the same amount of RAM, and if your network is good enough too, you should have the same speeds. I would just say to pay attention to the CPU TDP for the colling circuit to not be disturbed. Of course the motherboard and the firmware have to support the new components.
You also have to wonder is your disks are not already topping their SATA port speed.

Yes scrubbing can be initiated via SSH, not sure of the command but since this is basically a filesystem check and a raid resync, both should be possible to trigger. It is possible for Defrag too (actually tried this one).

If you are pressured, I would advise to list what functionalities you already use (the dealbreakers if they are missing), what you would like, and what performance you expect. After doing that look at all the manufacturers, do a comparison table and see which hardware/software is best for you. There are also NAS distributions working on top of a normal computer. Once you've done that, you'll see if there is a clear winner. Otherwise I would stick with Netgear for the sake of a simpler migration.

PS : There are both ReadyNAS and readyDATA available, I don't know the real differences (except readyDATA is marketed for pro) but one or the other may be a better fit for you (just keeping options open here) though I'm not sure readyDATA will let you transfer you disks as easily.