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Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

captclam1
Aspirant

Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

I currently have my X10 as my router and two R6250R2 APs in AP mode (wired backhaul). Unfortunately, I have the world's worst handoff. I could replace two of the APs with one X10 (R9000) (flamethrower) but am worried it wouldn't be any better. However, the R9000 has a checkbox for Enable Smart Roaming. If the other R9000 does, does that mean it will fix my problem? The signal never gets low enough for it to be lost and handed off, so I can be sitting in a room with one of the APs five feet away at - 45db, and my tablet hold tight to the R9000 at -68db.

I ordered the Orbi Pro Ax6000 three device setup, planning to wire two of them, but hate to install it if another R9000 X10 will be better at 1/3rd the cost. (My R9000 would be unneeded then (waste))

Please advise. Going crazy here.
Model: R9000|Nighthawk X10 AD7200 Smart WiFi Router
Message 1 of 9

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plemans
Guru

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

In AP mode, the R9000 doesn't use smart roaming. Even netgears extenders only support smart roaming while running in extender mode. Switch them to access point mode, and it doesn't roam properly. 

I'd probably stick with the orbi setup if you're wanting seamless roaming. 

Current Setup: CM2000-> SXK30-> GS716v2-> Arris W31 x2-> Pi-hole->

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Message 2 of 9

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plemans
Guru

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

In AP mode, the R9000 doesn't use smart roaming. Even netgears extenders only support smart roaming while running in extender mode. Switch them to access point mode, and it doesn't roam properly. 

I'd probably stick with the orbi setup if you're wanting seamless roaming. 

Current Setup: CM2000-> SXK30-> GS716v2-> Arris W31 x2-> Pi-hole->

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Message 2 of 9
captclam1
Aspirant

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

The OrbiPro AX6000 is garbage. I stood it up last night, and put it back in the box within 2 hours. It doesn't support wired backhaul without totally trashing everything. No intervlan routing works, and the port aggregation features are totally unreliable- when connected to a Netgear switch!  Dropped one of the trunks several times requiring reboot.

 

So if I have an R9000/X10, what do I need to do to have other wired APs, that support seamless handoff. I can't figure out a way to keep connections from dropped while switching from one to the other (as I indicated before). I can't understand why I can do it at work with my Cisco APs, and Meraki APs, but can't get a Netgear product that can do the same thing.  Is it the wireless controller that controls the handoff in that situation? If so, how could that signal the mobile device? If that is 802.11s, and the X10 supports 802.11s, I can't understand why that won't work. Is the option really gone when you switch the X10 into AP mode?

 

Lot's of questions, I know, but I am going to go crazy if I don't get this solved. 

Message 3 of 9
plemans
Guru

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?


@captclam1 wrote:

The OrbiPro AX6000 is garbage. I stood it up last night, and put it back in the box within 2 hours. It doesn't support wired backhaul without totally trashing everything. No intervlan routing works, and the port aggregation features are totally unreliable- when connected to a Netgear switch!  Dropped one of the trunks several times requiring reboot.

----I'd actually give the orbi a chance and post in the orbi AX forum. I haven't used it but know of several who have. A couple settings changes/firmware changes might improve it for you. 2 hours isn't always enough for complicated setups. 

 

So if I have an R9000/X10, what do I need to do to have other wired APs, that support seamless handoff. I can't figure out a way to keep connections from dropped while switching from one to the other (as I indicated before). I can't understand why I can do it at work with my Cisco APs, and Meraki APs,----you're comparing business class solutions to consumer grade solutions. If you want business grade, netgear has those.  but can't get a Netgear product that can do the same thing.  Is it the wireless controller that controls the handoff in that situation?----its not. Its the devices own roaming protocol but it requires the router/extender to be supporting it. Most extenders/router don't support it in access point mode as they're their own individual node.  If so, how could that signal the mobile device? If that is 802.11s, and the X10 supports 802.11s, I can't understand why that won't work. Is the option really gone when you switch the X10 into AP mode?----I've double checked with a moderator and in both extenders and routers, it doesn't function for ap mode. Again, I'd try the orbi again but go through the orbi AX forum for assistance with configuration with your switches/setup. Be specific to your setup, firmwares, and how you're setting everthing for the best help. 

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-AX/bd-p/en-home-orbi-ax

 

Lot's of questions, I know, but I am going to go crazy if I don't get this solved. 


 

Current Setup: CM2000-> SXK30-> GS716v2-> Arris W31 x2-> Pi-hole->
Message 4 of 9
captclam1
Aspirant

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

I did post over there. Apparently, there is no way to route an SSID so it can talk to the default wired network. I could configure the admin wireless for everyone to use, but it doesn't support SSID separation, and I need different SSIDs for 2.4 and 5ghz as several devices on my network refuse to connect with the Orbi deciding which network it belongs on. I tried this on the X10 as well, and everything connected to 2.4 no matter what.

 

So, if I left the second 10x in router mode, not AP mode, how could I accomplish what I want? It doesn't allow me to choose a different class C address range, so I would have to do a /26 or something for the DHCP on each. Considering the load between them isn't equal, and devices would move from one over to the other, they would lose their connection anyway because their source IP address would need to change when it connected to the second X10.  I really don't understand why the X10 has the 802.11s feature enabled if I can't put a single other AP in the house that supports it without it being on a different network.

 

I am sure I am missing something, so please clue me in on what it is. I would think with $800+ invested in these R9000s I should be able to have my mobile devices move from one side of the house to the other, leveraging the stronger of the two signals, without dropping or hanging on to the other AP until the signal drops below -74db.  HELP!   Mesh is of no real value to me, as I have ethernet everywhere. There has to be a solution!

Message 5 of 9
schumaku
Guru

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

Appears there are various misunderstandings on standards and features and what you do need or want.

 

What is sold on the market as Mesh systems are throw-in solutions by plugging some boxes to power and get things running over the wireless backhaul. Most Mesh systems are using proprietary schemes supported by STP, some are using 802.11s which does nothing but handling the wireless mesh between multiple wireless boxes. What makes devices seamlessly roaming are essentially 802.11k, 802.11v, 802.11r which is implemented on these Mesh systems as required for simple home or throw in SOHO or very small business networks.

 

I don't know what you have expected, what the plan is, why and how the Orbi Pro WiFi 6 does cause issues with whatever existing network, or why any undefined LAG does fail apart (look, I have ideas - or probably even know). This Orbi Pro WiFi 6 system does come with a bunch of preconfigured VLANs - and when you hook this up with a whatever managed network with existing VLAN configs, STP/RSTP/MST whatever - issues are predictable.

 

Believe me, I don't going to break a fight for Orbi Pro WiFi 6 - mainly due to lack of information from your side. What I see is a new development - up to a year or two we often heart from community members they have bought three new routers becasue it was sold to me to make my wireless coverage better, and the marketing was soooo darned promising. 

 

If you want the similar functionality as you buy for a lot of $$$$$ from Cisco APs or $$$$ Cisco Meraki AP and even much more annual $$$/$$$$ for everything - yes, Netgear has a lot of this available for some $$$ and $$ per year. Look into the Netgear Insight system, get at least some APs to start based on the needs of the location (some simple WAC505 can do a fine job in your garage, hobby room, some WAC540 where you need more client coverage or intend to link up some wireless connected WAC564, or WAX610 indoor or WAX610X for the garden), depending on the wiring a central or some distributed PoE+ switches. If your existing network is mostly wired anyway, if you want to extend the network and wireless coverage adding some access points, with your apparent knowledge from work, I'm not convinced any Orbi [Pro] [WiFi 6] whatever variant is right for your home. Because for the experience you have at your business there is no need for Orbi at all.  

 

If you have some newer Netgear Smart Managed Pro switches, they might have become cloud manageable already, too.

 

Back to the drawing board. Define what you have. Define what you need.

 

Scratch the idea of the R9000 - unless you can keep it rattling as a simple NAT router with WiFi disabled (or handling Mesh-ignorant Internet of Junk devices on a dedicated Wireless SSID, probably also retaining the seciond R9000 in AP mode for the same purpose) instead of a provider CPE you might need for IPTV and fixed network VoIP anyway.

 

Edit: Then please add a list of 2.4 GHz devices you failed to add - and try to explain why. There is no reason a 2.4 GHz device does not connect to the Orbi - except it's non-maintained junk not aware of the additional bits in the standards compliant WiFi 6 and the radio resource managent.  And try to understand single SSID spanning all bands is essential for coverage. Explained all this to many times - and I won't do it again here.

Message 6 of 9
schumaku
Guru

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

Ref. the R9000 - very unluckily (considering it's hefty price tag, the built-in hardware, and the access point feature also supported!) does not support 802.11k. Even with the same SSID (or SSIDs for each band) configured, clients will stick to the BSSID they connected initially. 

 

The wireless client like your mobile phone will connect to the 2.4 GHz band (longer reach...) when you approach your home, probably the one on the router. When you walk through the house, it will stick to that 2.4 GHz radio, unless the acceptable signal level goes to a sub-marginal level. That's what is called sticky client.

 

Assuming there would be 802.11k support, the APs would hand-out a list with the BSSIDs for each radio on the same SSID, and the wireless client would be able to evaluate the connectivity, and change to the other better suited AP radio. That's what basically makes up a Mesh system.

When having the idea of insisting using different SSIDs for the 2.4 GHz and the 5 GHz radios, the list for each SSID does contain either only the other 2.4 GHz radio BSSIDs, resp. only the other 5 GHz BSSIDs. So the wireless client will always tick to the same band.

 

What you expect from your business WiFi experience can only be achieved if there is only one SSID covering all the 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz BSSIDs. This allows the mobile client to connect when approaching the location to a AP 2.4 GHz radio, when you are in the office it will change to the AP 5 GHz radio, when moving to the production area it will roam to the next 5 GHz radio, when having a smoking break outdoor it will roam to the nearest 2.4 GHz AP radio, ... and so on. That's why a single SSID is mandatory for Mesh operations and the best WiFi experience.   And everything does always connect to the very same network, the same LAN, the same IP subnet, so the same WiFi - this the same SSID (because this is the one and only name for this network!). This is what you love so much on your business WiFi!

 

Crappy IoJ some App refuse to configure the 2.4 GHz IoJ device as long as the mobile operating the App is connected to 5 GHz needs updates. There is no reason because everything does connect to the same network.

 

Crappy IoJ which does not want to connect to the single SSID network need updated drivers for their wireless adapters.

 

Crappy IoJ which does not want to connect to WiFi 6 enabled network need updated drivers for their wireless adapters.

Crappy IoJ which does not want to connect to the single SSID and a WiFi 6 enabled network need updated drivers for their wireless adapters.

 

Hey, this even happened to Intel: They had to fix dozens of drivers (and firmware operating on the wireless adapters ) because most of ther older 802.11ac or 802.11n adapters failed to associate to a WiFi 6 enabled network. One of the 50% answers in the first months when new WiFi 6 products were introduced here in the community. We still read these form time to time "Hey my business notebook does not connect ot the new Netgear WiFi 6 Mesh - so Netgear s**s". Because of businesses IT (and Microsoft) was or still is lazy on updating drivers. This is all mostly not a Netgear issue. Why? Because the industry, the router, Mesh, or business WiFi makers is using industry standard radio modules, operating on embedded loadable firmware and drivers made by just a hand full of radio chipset vendors.

Should I hear this "split SSID" again, I will stop helping these community members.

Message 7 of 9
captclam1
Aspirant

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

Your tone is unhelpful and arrogant. You may mean well, but you come across as a jerk. I won't assume you are, although that was my original through. Giving you the BOTD.

 

 

Message 8 of 9
captclam1
Aspirant

Re: Two X10s One in AP mode 802.11s supported?

Taking you up on your threat and helping out the community...

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Split SSID

        Split SSID

Message 9 of 9
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