Orbi 960 location services not working

[SokarNox]

Hello, my router is blocking location services. Example, can’t login to ChatGPT because I’m not in a supported region (I live in the USA). I try to use my Sonic app on my phone, my location is not supported, I turn off WiFi, it then work fine. Roblox for kids won’t connect.

I have the most recent firmware. I have factory reset my router and modem. If I plug the model directly into my computer, all the services above work (ChatGPT, Sonic, Roblox and so on).

I also tried switching my DNS to 1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8

The modem is a Netgear CM500 and is very simple, doesn’t really have any options there.

Please help.

[SokarNox · Accepted solution]

I got it fixed! I had a BestBuy 2 year warranty, I took it in and they replaced the Orbi, and now it's working fine! All firmware updated, This is 100% a router defect!

[CrimpOn]

could you post a screen shot of the error message?

Does this system have Bitdefender Armor or Smart Parental Controls (SPC) enabled?

[SokarNox]

No VPN, Armor Security is on (don’t know how to turn it off) but it also was failing before I enabled it. No SPC

[SokarNox]

Another image.

[CrimpOn]

My impression is that Armor can be turned off with the Orbi app.  (I have never enabled Armor, and thus have no personal experience.  Once my lizard brain saw, "Free Trial." it went into "and then they want money" so the cheapo in me said, "No thanks."

Could you take a minute to verify the Time Setting on this Orbi system?  This is a setting on the web interface, Advanced Tab, Administration Menu... NTP Settings.

Thanks for mentioning "no VPN".  VPN is often used to manipulate geographical location.

Internet search turns up a number of discussions of this topic:

https://community.openai.com/t/cannot-access-chatgpt-no-matter-what-attempts-i-make/44399 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vunKWNLLABk 

I liked the advice to delete browser cache (especially the way he pronounced "cach-aye") or to try a different browser.

There was a post on the forum where the ISP reported that the user public IP address was in the wrong state, which resulted in being unable to stream a sports event because it was restricted geographically.

It  might be entertaining to contact the Internet Service Provider (ISP) and ask if other customers have reported this problem.

[SokarNox]

Time Setting are updated. Was set to UTC. See attachment.

I have tried different browsers, devices, incognito browser, tablets… fails on all devices.

I have called ISP, they are ones that suggested I plug the modem directly into my computer and then try (which I did, and then everything works) so that narrows it down to the router.

[schumaku]

Here again, your router does not know about location services - at all.

When using ChatGPU from your mobile (iOS phone from the screenshots), I don't know how you are able connect your iPhone direct to your Modem and compare...

To many players attempting to "enhance" the users "privacy" in yoiur data path. The obvious first point is your iPhone. Ok, you said "no VPN" ... what about the iCloud Privat-Relay for example?, It's much to easy to enable Content & Privacy Restrictions without recognizing.

Nothing, absolutely -nothing- on the normally operating NAT router like your Orbi 960 does block the location services. The router does not even know what a location service is.

[SokarNox]

I took the screenshot from my iPhone. I used my MacBook Pro for testing direct connection to modem vs router. If it’s not blocking anything, how do you explain all services working when not using the router, but all fail when using the router?

ChatGPT
Sonic App (mobile only)
Roblox Servers
Medical App (mobile only)

Tested ChatGPT (and yes I have also spoken to their support) on iPhone, MacBook, iPad and it always fails behind the router. The second I use a different network (example hotspot to my phone) it works fine. Or on my MacBook, direct connection to modem. It’s clearly the router.

[FURRYe38]

What happens if you IP address reserve the iPhone then input this IP address into the RBRs DMZ then test your apps as a quick test? 

https://kb.netgear.com/25722/How-do-I-reserve-an-IP-address-on-my-NETGEAR-router

https://kb.netgear.com/24086/How-do-I-set-up-a-default-DMZ-server-on-my-Nighthawk-router

(Use Orbilogin.com or 192.168.1.1)

Disable DMZ after testing this.

The CM500 is a fairly older model modem. Possible that the RBR is not getting correct services thru this modem, though PC does. The RBR is not location aware accept for time zone which it gets from NTP services only. 

Also about mobile phones, Be sure to disable any MAC Address randomizers on phones and pads while at home:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-App/NETGEAR-Mobile-Applications-and-Apple-Devices-FAQ/td-p/222...

[schumaku]

Such a "service" is kind of a database, maintainted from collected data like public IP address, proably LAN IP subnet, router WAN MAC address, in many cases the effective addresss, the wireless SSID and a correlation created based on all this information. Some suppliers bluntly fail if there is more data than they are able to quantify.

Experience shows that it takes time (days, sometimes weeks) after a change of the ISP, the router, the wireless, ... until this questionable service does return reliable -and- correct data. Some of these services might also take the effective location data - collected from GPS-equipped connected devices, too. Doubt randomized MAC on the WiFi (or elsewhere) - a pain for managing networks in general - have an impact.

Beyond me why they fail or at least struggle to use the most simple parameter: The owner of the IPv4 network address block, slightly more difficult (up to impossible!) based on IPv6 - this should be a sufficient starting point for deriving the country, and even more.

Complain to the makers and maintainers of these -unreliable- location services. And then once more again on the vendors still belive these services are sacrosanct and good enough to cause issues for those users, where it does not work.

Netgear has certainly no control or filter for this data in place.

Can't wait for the "but I have paid some 2000 Dollars earned by hard work for this router" comments.

[SokarNox]

DMZ didn’t resolve the issue. I have an older router I’m going to try and hookup that later today and see if that works. If it does work, then it’s obviously the router, if I’m still having issues, I might try and go buy a new modem and see if that fixes it. I’m really sick currently, so this might take 2 days to test. Will update when I can.

[CrimpOn]

It would be so much more helpful if these web sites would report where they believe the connection originates rather than simply "you are not in a place we allow to connect."

For example, where does these web sites claim you are?

https://www.where-am-i.co/my-ip-location 

https://iplocation.io/my-location 

[schumaku]

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@CrimpOn wrote:

It would be so much more helpful if these web sites would report where they believe the connection originates rather than simply "you are not in a place we allow to connect."

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Yes, junk!

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@CrimpOn wrote:

For example, where does these web sites claim you are?

https://www.where-am-i.co/my-ip-location 

https://iplocation.io/my-location 

---

Around 100 miles from my effective, current location. At an IP address I have got assigned many moons ago. Sure, I could share my effective position from my mobile with exact GPS location allowed to my preferred browser. Wherever somebody allowed to share his position, while having that IP address assigned.

Sooo, for now the locatin for this IP is set to a place somehere the Pacific is deep enough not to find any ground. This explains how useful or useless this garbage is.

[CrimpOn]

(I realize that the discussion has wandered a bit off topic, but am fascinated by the issue of "How does a web site know where I am?")

Those "where am I?" web sites consistently report

• The IP address which my ISP (Spectrum) has currently assigned to me.
• A location that most likely is a Spectrum tower in a nearby city. (about 5 miles away. not 100 miles away!)  which is strange because the Spectrum "Head End" that serves my neighborhood is less than 2 miles away.
• If I give permission for my browser to know my location, it then nails my exact street address. (well, one street over, but the house number is correct.)  I have no idea how this works.

None of this would seem to have anything to do with the WiFi router.  I can see one difference:

• When the computer is connected directly to the modem, it has the public IP address that has been assigned to the customer modem.  A web browser would report the public IP address.
• When the computer is connected to a WiFi router, one would think that it would report the private IP address assigned by the router (??) except that the router will use Network Address Translation (NAT) to modify the source address to the public IP and create a port number that is mapped internally to the originating port number.

I simply cannot come up with an explanation for why a computer connected directly to the modem would work and the same computer connected to a customer WiFi router would not.

[SokarNox]

1. **IP Address Location**: Websites often use your IP address to estimate your location. This IP address is assigned by your Internet Service Provider (ISP), like Spectrum in your case. The location associated with an IP address is typically that of the ISP's data center or a central hub, which might not be exactly where you are. That's why the location might be a nearby city, not precisely where you live. The distance discrepancy you mentioned (5 miles vs. 2 miles) can be attributed to where Spectrum's IP addresses are registered.

2. **WiFi Router and NAT**: Regarding your point on WiFi routers and Network Address Translation (NAT), it's important to clarify that while your device has a private IP address within your local network, when communicating over the internet, the router translates this to a public IP address assigned by your ISP. This public IP is what websites see, regardless of whether you're connected directly to the modem or through a WiFi router. Thus, the website does not see your private IP address but the public IP provided by Spectrum.

3. **Browser-Based Geolocation**: The more accurate location (like the one street over from you) is determined through your browser's geolocation feature. When you give a website permission, it can access your device's built-in location services, which use a combination of GPS, nearby Wi-Fi networks, cell towers, and possibly other sensors to pinpoint your location much more accurately than just an IP address.

4. **Modem vs. WiFi Router**: As for the difference in connectivity through the modem and WiFi router, there shouldn't be a significant difference in how your location is detected by websites. In both cases, the external-facing IP address given by your ISP is what websites use for location estimation. The NAT process in the router does not affect the detection of this public IP address.

In summary, the general location is estimated based on your IP address assigned by the ISP, while more precise location detection involves your device's location services that combine various data sources when you permit your browser to access them. The use of a modem or WiFi router doesn't fundamentally change the way your location is estimated by websites.

[CrimpOn]

Thanks for the explanation. Amazing what a Windows 11 PC that is wired to an Orbi router can accomplish.  As far as I am aware, this HP computer has no GPS capability, no telephone carrier capability.  It does have WiFi which I only use when too lazy to open a laptop to use Wireshark to monitor the WiFi network.

It makes really good sense that a cellular device with a GPS chip and provide precise location. This Windows PC???

And, this discussion only seems to solidify that a PC connected to some web site should appear to be in the same place whether connected to the modem or to a customer router.

[SokarNox]

That is correct, it makes absolutely no sense that it works when I plug in directly to the modem versus the router. It should still have the same external IP address resulting in the same location; but we don’t know what method are using to try to determine the location. Once I try a different router, that should determine if it’s the router or the modem causing the issue. I read somewhere that having a double NAT (one on modem, one on router) could cause location services not to work properly. But I do not have a NAT on my modem.

This is why I contacted my ISP, and multiple services trying to resolve the issue. Everybody keeps pointing to the modem or the router.

[SokarNox]

The issue is definitely the router, swapping to my old router, everything then worked fine. This router definitely has an issue.

[CrimpOn]

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@SokarNox wrote:
No VPN, Armor Security is on (don’t know how to turn it off) but it also was failing before I enabled it. No SPC

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Is the Armor on this Orbi the "free trial" or a paid subscription?

[SokarNox]

It is a paid subscription, but it was not working before I paid for the subscription. I thought maybe stuff stopped working because I was not paying for the service, so I bought it. But like I said, it was already not working before I bought the paid subscription. It was just disabled.

[FURRYe38]

Can you do the following with Orbi RBR unit? 

Factory reset the router:

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi-WIFI-6-AX-AND-Wi-Fi-6E-AXE/Procedure-for-Factory-reset-of-RBS8...

Reboot the modem then connect the RBR960.

Walk thru the setup wizard with a wired PC and web browser and setup from scratch:

https://kb.netgear.com/22697/How-do-I-install-my-NETGEAR-router-using-the-router-web-interface

Setup with limited changes just to see if this helps.

Let us know if this changes anything with the locations services. 

[SokarNox]

I have already done a factory reset on the modem and the router. That was the first thing I tried.

[SokarNox · Accepted solution]

I got it fixed! I had a BestBuy 2 year warranty, I took it in and they replaced the Orbi, and now it's working fine! All firmware updated, This is 100% a router defect!

[FURRYe38]

Great to hear. Odd failure for sure. Glad you were able to get it replaced. 

Please mark your thread as solved so others will know. Be sure to save off a back up configuration to file for safe keeping. Saves time if a reset is needed.
https://kb.netgear.com/000062080/How-do-I-back-up-the-configuration-settings-on-my-Orbi-WiFi-System
Enjoy. 📡