Re: Feature Request: Orbi Satellite Ethernet Backhaul

JMU1998 · ‎2017-03-20

Now even Amplifi are going to offer wired backhaul why does Netgear always have to play catchup after taking the lead? Competition always see to fly past Netgear even if Netgear starts ahead, just poor feature set and slow Firmware release plagues Netgear everytime they put out something promising, Orbi still has a lot of potential but features Must improve wired backhaul is one of them now every competitor is offering it!

Hirrdgoon · ‎2017-03-22

Wait, how can Amplifi impliment wired backhaul with the wirless mesh Nodes? They don't have wired ports. Sure the router can do wired connections, thats not exactly what we mean by wired backhaul.

Or did they release new hardware?

rafale7 · ‎2017-03-23

It does sound odd on the Amplifi...

To feed on the discussion I actually have all 3 setups which was suggested to compare and ran a few tests.

I am in an environment where I have setup a single AP with 15 wireless clients on that AP. One is a IP cam streaming at 6Mbps all the others are a mix of 2.4GHz or on 5GHz AC or A/N. The mix is the same through the test. Using iperf 2 on a macbook pro (3x3 @5Ghz), all tested on the same channel and environment I have gotten the following results:

Apple Airport Extreme AC with the signal at -51dB varies from 520Mbps to 590Mbps

Ubiquity UAP AC Pro signal at -54dB varies from 350 to 400Mbps

Orbi single unit as an AP with signal at -49dB varies from 500 to 560Mbps

Pros and Cons:

Apple Pros: High speed in multi client environment, single interface. Rock solid stability and compatibility.

Apple Cons: Future support, no mesh, no dedicated wireless backhaul, no band steering/AP steering.

Ubiquity Pros: Controller interface offers a lot of options. Band steering, AP steering. Good stability

Ubiquity Cons: Relatively poor performance (coverage and speed). Verified on ubqt forum than cumulative bandwidth for 10 simultaneous clients is expected to drop to 300Mbps. I am observing 600Mbps+ on the old Airport. Best case peak single client is to reach 600Mbps (Vs 800+Mbps = gigabit ethernet limit for Airport). No dedicated wireless backhaul (repeaters would have even worse performance). Has some compatibility issues with specific devices

Orbi Pros: High wireless speed and range. Dedicate backhaul meaning little/no performance degradation from satellite . Strong signal (though might not be good for speed).

Orbi Cons: No wired backhaul. Stability concerns from reports. Limited interface options.

Pretty disappointed overall by Ubiquity but there is hope in Orbi. I think having more than 2 wireless satellites per base may degrade performance of the satellites making the wired backhaul even more important for locations which have that option.

st_shaw · ‎2017-03-23

@rafale7 I'm curious. I don't have any 3x3 AC devices to test with, so I can't max out my Ubiquit gear. Did you have the Ubiquiti device set to VHT80 channel width on the 5 GHz? Was there a guest network setup on the system?

rafale7 · ‎2017-03-23

@st_shaw

Yes all were using VHT80 channel. Performance wouldn't be able to reach above 400Mbps without it. And no guest network. My set up has a separate SSID for 2.4GHz though and it was set exactly the same to make it a drop in replacement. I spent some time on the ubqt forum and it is pretty consistent with what others have observed there. Even if all the devices are 2x2 you will see significantly lower performance with multiple clients compared to Apple. In a "connected home" the single client performance is useless since we are to expect 5-20 clients per AP. ubqt own data showed aggregate throughput to be very limited in multi user environment and are releasing the HD with a 4x4 radio at a whooping $350 a piece to improve it. If it was $150 I would have considered it but not at $350.

That being said I am considering changing my setup to increase range and if possible speed and I have to say, ubqt is not the answer. Both speed and range are reduced dramatically. It could be that the LR has higher range but being a 2X2, it would be a downgrade for speed. The major problem seems to be the processing power of the unit.

The controller was a pain to install on ubuntu server and took a lot of community help/try and error to get to work but is very attractive, informative and functional so I understand the hype.I am just very disappointed by the hardware performance and can only say there is a lot of overhyping going on.

Peak Single client

AC Pro: ~600Mbps

Airport AC: ~820Mbps

Can see here:

I don't have the 10 client stress environment to compare to this dataset but my low 15 client test shows:

AC Pro: ~450Mbps

Airport AC: ~600Mbps

Note also that these are not peak throughput. I am actually 15ft away one floor down from the AP for these tests.

st_shaw · ‎2017-03-23

Thanks, @rafale7. I'm surprised you could get 600 Mbps from so far away. I've read that Apple is discontinuing their WiFi APs though. Strange, since they seem to perform well.

peteytesting · ‎2017-03-23

@st_shaw wrote:
Thanks, @rafale7. I'm surprised you could get 600 Mbps from so far away. I've read that Apple is discontinuing their WiFi APs though. Strange, since they seem to perform well.

financial decision based on how much they would make on routers etc v how much they make on phones and tablets

st_shaw · ‎2017-03-23

@peteytesting wrote:
@st_shaw wrote:
Thanks, @rafale7. I'm surprised you could get 600 Mbps from so far away. I've read that Apple is discontinuing their WiFi APs though. Strange, since they seem to perform well.
financial decision based on how much they would make on routers etc v how much they make on phones and tablets

Yeah. Seems like it's getting harder and harder to find high-performance products anymore. People don't want to pay for it. The phone market is also making it harder to find high performance electronic components like accelerometers and magnetometrs.

rafale7 · ‎2017-03-23

Indeed. The rumor is that the development team from Apple's router have been reassigned to the AppleTV product. It means no new product or developments in the foreseeable future but when I look at the market offering and the development in the past 4 years, I can see why. There isn't any significant breakthrough. Their 4 year old product is still competitive and and a lack of innovation/differentiation means lack of revenue $.

And note that the Orbi is not too shabby. It is actually pretty close and far ahead of the ubqt. The hardware is good. Software/firmware needs some work which is the opposite of ubqt. The single biggest differentiation is the 1.7Gbps wireless backhaul which can feed a satelitte broadcasting at 1.3Gbps (+450Mbps at 2.4GHz). The 5GHz AC radio itself, the ethernet ports and the processing power are all there. Just need to make it run right. Netgear has the right idea.

I think UAP AC's concept is a wired mesh with weak APs compensated by numbers and having them work in concert coordinated by a separate controller and router. It appears to have been designed for 2x2 devices with low throughputs. Each AP, having more of them, would then have to handle fewer clients and needing less bandwidth. The issue I see with this is the intrinsic bandwidth of each AP is too low and not future proof. The new HD really is adding more processing capability more than the extra antenna and radio giving the abilty to handle more throughput.

If netgear could make the orbi router the controller and each satellite having the ability to connect wirelessly to one other satellite and wired to the router. Or be connected to the router wirelessly, you would get the most flexible and powerful wireless platform. For now, I guess I am returning all the new gear.

Router --- (wireless backhaul) --- Satellite

|

(wired backhaul)

|

Satellite --- (wireless backhaul) --- Satellite

|

(wired backhaul)

|

Satellite --- (wireless backhaul) --- Satellite

|

etc...

TheEther · ‎2017-03-23

Some of you are mixing up two of Ubiquiti's products. The Amplifi is their mesh system. The UAP AC is part of their Unifi lineup of wired Access Points; they have no mesh capability.

peteytesting · ‎2017-03-23

@TheEther wrote:
Some of you are mixing up two of Ubiquiti's products. The Amplifi is their mesh system. The UAP AC is part of their Unifi lineup of wired Access Points; they have no mesh capability.

and just confuse things even more there is now unifi mesh

https://unifi-mesh.ubnt.com/

rafale7 · ‎2017-03-23

In My case, I did not confuse the products. I was just using the word mesh inaccurately.

What I meant by it was to say that the APs are able to talk to one another and steer devices to the AP with the highest signal which the unifi can do and.

The Orbi is really not a mesh network neither.

peteytesting · ‎2017-03-23

@rafale7 wrote:

What I meant by it was to say that the APs are able to talk to one another and steer devices to the AP with the highest signal which the unifi can do and.
The Orbi is really not a mesh network neither.

this can only happen if the clients are capable of understanding and moving , most devices / clients arnt compatible with that standard yet

correct orbi is a distributed wireless system , not a mesh system

TheEther · ‎2017-03-24

peteytesting wrote:

this can only happen if the clients are capable of understanding and moving , most devices / clients arnt compatible with that standard yet

If you are thinking of 802.11r, iOS has supported it for quite some time. It also supports 802.11k and 802.11v. source. Android, I beleive, has supported it since Lollipop. source

correct orbi is a distributed wireless system , not a mesh system

I know you understand what Orbi is, but this distinction may be too subtle for some to understand. This picture may help others.

The Orbi uses the setup on the right, with the base station in the middle. A true mesh system (i.e. one that supports 802.11s) is on the left.

iHeijoushin · ‎2017-03-26

Linksys' Mesh Velop system utilizes both a dedicated wireless backhaul like the Orbi and offers ethernet backhaul - giving the best of both worlds.

However, the Velop's lack of extra ethernet ports, like the Orbi, gives me pause. As the competition for mesh system heats up in 2017, Netgear would really be foolish to leave this feature out forever.

I'll just sit and wait and continue resenting my pair of R6400 in clunky AP mode.

JMU1998 · ‎2017-03-26

@iHeijoushin Please request it here in idea exchange there is petition on going for it more voices more attention it gets, I believe it is on the cards but no ETA

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/Netgear-Orbi-Wired-Sattelite/idi-p/1145210

The more people thumbs up and state their use case more likely it will be added sooner rather than later, right not Engineering has bigger fish to fry with stability and disconnect issues.

Dirtduff · ‎2017-04-02

I just purchased the Orbi system from Costco with Router and 2 satellites. Unlike eero and other comptetors there is no ethernet (wired) connection on the Orbi satellites. Big disappointment. My house is large and is wired for 4 ethernet ports. Several rumors on the various blogs state that the ORBI satellites will get a firmware update that will enable one of the 4 ethernet ports on the satellites to function as a backhaul connection to the router. Is this true? Its a shame to use a wireless connection when I have a wired ports available throughout my house. Also, in addtion to using a network switch at the ORBI ROUTER i will need to use a network switch AND an Orbi satellite at each wired ports in my house, rather than just an ORBI satellite with one ethernet backhaul. This will result in daisychaining switchs and I have heard that daisychaining switches is not good. Costco allows 90 days for returns. If the firmware update does not happen within 90 days I will return the Orbi and purchase a few Apple Airports.

peteytesting · ‎2017-04-02

interestingly you have read there might be an update and you where aware that it didnt have ethernet backhaul yet you purchased the orbi and are now disapointed !!! , wether it will ever get or at some stage get ethernet backhaul is anyones guess as its been talked about forever and nothing from netgear as far as an official response goes , not even a suggestion at this stage

if you have structured ethernet runs in the house why would you want any mesh or distributed wireless system anyway , all you need is a few well placed wireless access points or wireless routers with AP mode

its been almost a year since the orbi was in beta and then released and all that time ppl have asked for backhaul ethernet and nothing has come of it and tbh i dont think it will in the next 90 days although wonders never cease to amaze me , perhaps ethernet backhaul on the orbi will be one of them that do

Random12 · ‎2017-04-03

@peteytesting wrote:
wether it will ever get or at some stage get ethernet backhaul is anyones guess as its been talked about forever and nothing from netgear as far as an official response goes , not even a suggestion at this stage

Netgear acknowledged this request and said they are considering it, but didn't confirm that it will happen for sure. The post I read from a Netgear product manager is on this forum here somewhere, in one of the ehternet backhaul threads.

peteytesting · ‎2017-04-03

and they have been "considering it" for almost a year with not a further word

what i think is we may see a orbi 2.0 with ethernet backhaul , but at this stage the workload just to get the current issues fixed and working is still to be addressed

until we see an announcement that its been added i wouldnt get excited at all about if and or when or even at all

selsrog · ‎2017-04-23

I'll be returning my gear as well.

Forgot to check the existance of the ethernet backhaul (as I imagined it was available).

Cannot wait for the firmware update... If it ever sees the light of day...

rafale7 · ‎2017-04-23

@selsrog wrote:
I'll be returning my gear as well.
Forgot to check the existance of the ethernet backhaul (as I imagined it was available).
Cannot wait for the firmware update... If it ever sees the light of day...

I returned mine yesterday. It is too bad because they were performing quite well but did not fit my use case. After thinking about it, Not to second guess the netgear engineers and marketing guys but being in the tech field doing both jobs myself, I would have adopted a slightly different product strategy:

1. I would have made the routers and satellites interchangeable given the fact that they are physically identical in terms of hardware. It would have saved cost by releasing a unique unit and lowered the inventory management.

2. I would have designed it with the flexibility of the ethernet backhaul, used a 3x3 broadcast radio with the 4x4 backhaul

3. limited the backhaul to 2 satellites to maintain performance of the wireless satellites.

I spent some time testing different 2x2, 3x3, and 4x4 APs with a single clients on the 5GHz AC band for those who think the unifi AC lineup is anywhere close to an upgrade, think again. they are practicaly the slowest AP you can buy with the exception of the just off the mill AC-HD which is finally using a decent/enterprise chipset. The others use a chipset only found in a couple of very poor budget N or "AC was an afterthought" routers. The AC-Pro achieved 25-50% lower speed vs the Apple AP at most locations in spite of using 50% (6 Vs 4) more units in my topology.

JMU1998 · ‎2017-04-25

Any update from Netgear Engineering on this wired backhaul feature? Do any Mods have any additional info to share with us on this topic if Engineering are considering this as a future enhancement request? Netgear Idea exchange has it as the most popular feature requested.

https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/Netgear-Orbi-Wired-Sattelite/idi-p/1145210

AmitR · ‎2017-04-26

Let me acknowledge that our customer base has been clamoring for this feature for a while, and we are trying to be responsive to their needs. To provide context on why it's taking a while to get it out, during the first quarter, the Orbi Engineering team was focused on bringing out the two new products (RBK30 & RBK40) to market. Now that it's accomplished, we're actively working on bringing this feature and a couple of other interesting, market-requested features to you.

Orbi Product Team

JMU1998 · ‎2017-04-26

@AmitR this is fantastic news that wired backhaul is in the works a feature most welcome and highly desired and being requested for a while by the community. thank you for the update and good news we eagerly await the firmware that will make this a really. thank you Engineering for listening.