It is good to see a Netgear moderator reviewing the forum.
FYI. After rolling back to 1.8.x I am pleased to report that ALL my SlingTV and WIFI calling problem have mostly been resolved. 1.8.x is not perfect, but much more stable verses 1.9.x.
I have blocked Internet access port 80 and 443 for the Orbi IPs, hence preventing them from auto-updating.
Again, I am having far better success using 1.8.x.
If you need to know:
iPad Pro
iPad Air 2
iPhone 7 Plus
iPhone 7
iPhone 6s
Macbook Pro 2016
Macbook Air 2015
2 x Sony Bravia Android TVs
HP Office Pro Printer
Other devices connected via Ethernet, and are stable.
All devices running the latest software.
All devices suffering random disconnects 5-10 times per day.
1.9.x was not usable. Disconnects and packet loss problems causing my voice and video services to drop constantly (3-6 times per hour)
P.S. Maybe you would respond to our previous post. Thank You!
I set IP reservations for both the Orbi Router and Satellite in my Asus AC68U. Orbi IP never changes no matter how many times I reboot them
I went into the Asus Router (again with WiFi disabled) and enabled "Network Services Filter". Blacklisted the Orbi and Stallite from reaching out to any Internet IP with UDP protocol. This simply blocks DNS translation and prevents Orbi checker from reaching update servers.
Downgrade the Orbi Satellite to version 1.8.0.6
Downgrade the Orbi Router to version 1.8.0.6
Check that they cannot update themselves via the Firmware Update checker on Orbi Web management portal. Auto updates failed to check at all. Now status shows "No Internet" in the update section but Orbi main page still shows online.
Run through my testing again by playing Overwatch and running Pingplotter in the background and guess what? zero issues.
Also because I don't block ICMP the Orbi's still think they are online so they don't complain about anything now.
For me this firmware borked my Orbi units. Blocking the auto updates at my router/firewall and rolling back the firmware fixed all of my issues.
A less technically savvy person would have returned these or would've just gotten frustrated with them.
My Orbi's still updated themselves after a few days with my original guide. I have modified it so it blocks all UDP traffic from Orbi's to the Internet. This in turn blocked DNS so the Orbi can no longer translate IP addresses. This forces the update checker to fail completely. Now it cannot even detect if there is a new firmware.
Very sad. Clearly Netgear doesn't care, even though we can see posts from Darren (Netgear Moderator). Not even an acknowledgment.
Time to move on and find another solution I guess.
1.8.x has been far better than 1.9.x. For those who say 1.9.x is working for you, congratulations. For us who pulled the short stick, very, very, sad.
Maybe in the future we will find a DDWRT or Tomato, or other custom firmware that can make this product work for the other 50 percent who have problems. Until that time, Netgear, don't expect any further investment from me.
I was thinking about loooking at other solutions as well. I'm torn as the Orbi is still the fastest of these mesh wifi systems. I would much rather go with multiple wired AP units in my place but I don't own it and don't want to make that type of investment. I work in IT so I have the pleasure of working with enterprise grade hardware that is way better then this stuff and support that is very responsive.
I'll be taking a look at some of the ubiquiti gear next. It's the closest I can get to enterprise grade without spending a ton of money and it looks like they released a mesh like system as well recently. To give you an idea of enterprise class costs 2 x APs of what we use at my office would run me over $2k msrp.
20 years of IT working with the best of the best can make opinions of consumer grade products challenging. I try to keep my opinions and criticism grounded. I know it's not realistic to expect commercial grade experiences, but a basic level of functionality and customer service should be realistic.
The sad thing is most consumers now accept that the poor experience they have is "normal". They have no reference of what minimal quality should be. Of course they want things cheap, and there is some truth that "you get what you pay for". But Netgear decided to charge "near" mid-commercial grade prices, and hence set a high expectations.
I too spent hours running copper Ethernet through my home, and Orbi led me to believe I could mitigate that large weekend task and not sacrifice much in terms of performance. Boy, how I got played!!!
I have considered ubiquiti but given the significant investment into Orbi, I was trying to save that investment, but now I must accept that reality.
Sad, but good, that ubiquiti disabled their band and device steering on newer products because they knew it had problems. I respect that! Which is why Netgear is so disappointing. Many newer devices prefer to handle roaming on their own and fight third party steering, but yes older devices may need it. Which is why it is a user controlled feature.
Netgear just doesn't get it, or they don't care. In any case I will most likely move to ubiquiti as I should have before.
So I've spent some time reading the forums and it's evident that some people have found the orbi to be more stable with the new firmware and others have said it's gotten worse. I wanted to share my experience as it's been an odd one to say the least.
My Setup: ISP Modem (Bridge Mode) -> Netgear Nighthawk (Router) -> Orbi (AP Mode)
When I first got Orbi, I was plagued with reboot issues and after reading suggestions on the forums, I switched the Orbi to AP mode. This stabilized performance and cut down disconnects and all was fine and dandy. I had MUMIMO disabled, beamforming enabled, WMM enabled and both radios (2.4 and 5ghz) at 100% transmit.
With the firmware update on May 5th, my whole setup fell apart and I started seeing latency issues on all iOS devices. I did some more forum research and tinkered with settings, moved Orbi router, moved Orbi satellite, adjusted transmit power and even prayed for a miracle. Nothing worked.
Completely dejected, I decided to unplug my modem, nighthawk and Orbi devices and put things back the way they used to be until a new firmware update would resolve the issues. The strange thing is that everything is working fine now and I have no clue why.
The Orbi router is in my basement and satellite is on the second floor of the house (50-60ft apart) and I'm no longer seeing the latency problems on my iOS devices like before. I have no clue what the made it stable but the household is at peace again without constant nagging that the internet isn't working.
Now not everything is fine and dandy as I do notice my iOS device dropping wifi and reverting to LTE when I'm moving about the house (not in use but in my pocket) but as soon as I unlock the phone it seems to hop onto wifi and function properly.
Not too sure what else to say but I'm hoping you guys have the same luck as I did. I do really enjoy the Orbi as it's much better than anything I've previously used. I wish it wasn't so finicky and I wish netgear got firmware out quicker but then we'd live in a perfect world!
Anyways, the point here is I really hope you guys see similar results in possibly just unplugging the whole system, moving the Orbi devices farther apart and possibly just rebooting all your network devices as I did. I know it seems a bit amateur but it seems to have helped me and hopefully it works for you too!
I set IP reservations for both the Orbi Router and Satellite in my Asus AC68U. Orbi IP never changes no matter how many times I reboot them
I went into the Asus Router (again with WiFi disabled) and enabled "Network Services Filter". Blacklisted the Orbi and Stallite from reaching out to any Internet IP with UDP protocol. This simply blocks DNS translation and prevents Orbi checker from reaching update servers.
Downgrade the Orbi Satellite to version 1.8.0.6
Downgrade the Orbi Router to version 1.8.0.6
Check that they cannot update themselves via the Firmware Update checker on Orbi Web management portal. Auto updates failed to check at all. Now status shows "No Internet" in the update section but Orbi main page still shows online.
Run through my testing again by playing Overwatch and running Pingplotter in the background and guess what? zero issues.
Also because I don't block ICMP the Orbi's still think they are online so they don't complain about anything now.
For me this firmware borked my Orbi units. Blocking the auto updates at my router/firewall and rolling back the firmware fixed all of my issues.
A less technically savvy person would have returned these or would've just gotten frustrated with them.
My Orbi's still updated themselves after a few days with my original guide. I have modified it so it blocks all UDP traffic from Orbi's to the Internet. This in turn blocked DNS so the Orbi can no longer translate IP addresses. This forces the update checker to fail completely. Now it cannot even detect if there is a new firmware.
So... I'm going to have to revise this yet again. It seems that since I am blocking all UDP traffic out of the Orbi's now they are deciding they want to be offline. This happened a few days after my revised guide was posted. For the love of god Netgear, let me turn off auto updates. What this is causing is random packet loss. It looks like maybe the CPU or some resources on the router go under heavy load and it in turn causes dropped packets to anything going over the Orbi. I believe it is a load issue because it definately happens when I am on the web interface and when the devices try to check for updates.
So since I have switched back to my ubiquiti router I did some more digging in the logs and found the Orbi reaching out on "FTP" and "WEB - Other" classifications of traffic. I'm not totally sure what "web - other" is but will try to update when I find out. I just set my firewall rules to block outbound Web and FTP for the two Orbis and update checker fails with a no response tag now. They are behaving properly for now. I also tried to let them update again and the same issue as before was happening. Packet loss every 15-20 minutes.
I am on the brink of cutting my losses and trying something else, even if it is slower...
i see no real logic in turning aurto update of completly , it just need to be set so its tells you there is an update ready and what time it will be done
far to many ppl ignore firmware updates and then have unsecure routers , security updates should be mandatory
I see there are number of full time IT people commenting on this thread. I too have 25 years of experience in IT, current MCSE, CCNP/CCDP, and VCP6. I have a bunch of other IT certifications too.
It is in long term IT people to make things work. We are use to spending hours and days making something work that nobody thought was possible. Not only does it make us look smart, but it makes us feel special; like we are smart.
I have spent dozens of hours on this Netgear Orbi, or as I call it, Netgear Ooopsi. I think we are once again at the point in the technology industry where releasing a product onto the market first is more important than making sure it actually works. Beta is now once again thrusted upon the early adopters. And for those who are less technology saavy, I expect that they have purchased this product to replace their 15 year old linksys WRT54G router, anything would be an improvement. But back to the facts.
I have never, ever spent so much time on a home product just to make it work properly. If it wasn't that I gave the product the benefit of the doubt that I didn't understand the new features, and tried so hard to understand what I was doing wrong, I would have returned it a week after I purchased it.
This thread is filled with so many things that either don't work or don't work well. I could start listing the things that do work, but realized the list would contain only those things that everyone would assume would work, such as..."I can log in" and "I can set a DHCP reservation" and "I can see both the router and satellite in the same pain of glass".
I already know that word has gotten out in the IT tech community that both the Orbi and Google home products are well intended junk. They are not recommending these devices to the people that come and ask, "What should I get for my home, I have areas that are dead spots". Yet, the marketing engine still works in saying that this problem is solved with the Orbi.
You will find that there is a firesale going on with those who have purchased the Orbi and Google Home. You can find these systems used being sold for $50-$75 off original prices, and there are LOTS of them. They are selling them using the same marketing propaganda being used by Netgear. Having spent so much time on making this thing work I just can not believe that all of those "best product ever" reviews are not a part of some mega fake marketing scheme.
So with that, I am joining the firesale and bid this forum and Netgear "Au due". Good luck all.
Orbi is the best whole house router I have ever owned! Best product EVER!
i see no real logic in turning aurto update of completly , it just need to be set so its tells you there is an update ready and what time it will be done
far to many ppl ignore firmware updates and then have unsecure routers , security updates should be mandatory
That's not really the point. The update caused packet loss for me. It feels like lag when loading a web page or playing an online game. I get spurts long enough to drop me from matches in overwatch. It took me a while to figure out the root cause of the issue and as it turns out it is firmware 1.9.1.12. I tried rolling back and the Orbis would just update themselves again. There is no way around this, you cannot disable it. I am ok with running a version of the firmware 1 revision back since it was working. I am currenly trying to block these updates at the router level but it has caused some unexpected behavior.
I'm about to bite the bullet and just install Ubiquiti AP's in this house. I don't want to invest that kind of time and money since the property isn't mine but I may not have a choice if I want reliable connectivity.
sorry but it is the point , we have a whole thread on " i dont want the orbi to self update" but tbh automation is the key to both better software and better security , ppl are generally lazy and wont update when its available as they are to busy killing each other online gaming and the like , even when reminded these ppl wont update
its a case for manufactures of dammed if they do and dammed if they dont
While I appreciate that improving services is the goal, and yes, home users can be "Set it and forget it", but if Orbi was in any of my client environments and I told them that Netgear is forcing ffirmware upgrades that break their network so they can not function, in the name of better software and better security, they would fire me.
Then I am thinking, do you really know how bad it is?
Having some programming experience, and dealing with Microsoft, Cisco, and VMWare upgrade, it isn't difficult to put a "Do not auto update firmware" option in the system. To tell us that they can't or won't do it is simply arrogant and ignorant.
Model: Orbi High-Performance AC3000 Tri-Band WiFi System (RBK50)
Having some programming experience, and dealing with Microsoft, Cisco, and VMWare upgrade, it isn't difficult to put a "Do not auto update firmware" option in the system. To tell us that they can't or won't do it is simply arrogant and ignorant.
sorry but i see those not wanting auto fw updates as exactly the same way eg arrogant and ignorant. , as logic states that ppl are lazy and wont update unless they are forced
i see no real logic in turning aurto update of completly , it just need to be set so its tells you there is an update ready and what time it will be done
far to many ppl ignore firmware updates and then have unsecure routers , security updates should be mandatory
That's not really the point. The update caused packet loss for me. It feels like lag when loading a web page or playing an online game. I get spurts long enough to drop me from matches in overwatch. It took me a while to figure out the root cause of the issue and as it turns out it is firmware 1.9.1.12. I tried rolling back and the Orbis would just update themselves again. There is no way around this, you cannot disable it. I am ok with running a version of the firmware 1 revision back since it was working. I am currenly trying to block these updates at the router level but it has caused some unexpected behavior.
I'm about to bite the bullet and just install Ubiquiti AP's in this house. I don't want to invest that kind of time and money since the property isn't mine but I may not have a choice if I want reliable connectivity.
Running 1.9.1.12 here in AP mode, with a nVidia Shield TV Pro hooked up via Ethernet to my satellite upstairs, running mtr against it from a hardwired Linux server in the wiring closet for over 48 hours (presumably long enough for the firmware check to fire at least once). 0 packet drops, 3.3ms average (over 5GHz backhaul), 12.2ms worst-case. If update checks were as disruptive as you claim, this simply would not have been possible.
I'm not questioning that you're having issues, but I strongly question your determination of root cause. Unless I got Magical Unicorn(TM) Orbis, what you describe did not happen, at least not for the reasons you believe.
I still wonder if its a bad device on their network or ipv6 issues.
I know with Uverse troubleshooting with a nighthawk. I turned off ipv6 on the uverse gatway. Powered off the receivers. And then powered off the gateway and restarted and everything was stable. Then I decided I wanted better connection to my backyard and detached garage. With the orbis running in router mode bridged through uverse fiber and this update on the orbis. Everything is all good. No packet loss. No dropped ipad pro, iphone 7 plus, Samsung Galaxy s8, Google Pixel, 9 echo dots, etc.
Going on 2 weeks without an issue. Just added in a new LG OLED and a new 4k bluray player as well yesterday.
i see no real logic in turning aurto update of completly , it just need to be set so its tells you there is an update ready and what time it will be done
far to many ppl ignore firmware updates and then have unsecure routers , security updates should be mandatory
That's not really the point. The update caused packet loss for me. It feels like lag when loading a web page or playing an online game. I get spurts long enough to drop me from matches in overwatch. It took me a while to figure out the root cause of the issue and as it turns out it is firmware 1.9.1.12. I tried rolling back and the Orbis would just update themselves again. There is no way around this, you cannot disable it. I am ok with running a version of the firmware 1 revision back since it was working. I am currenly trying to block these updates at the router level but it has caused some unexpected behavior.
I'm about to bite the bullet and just install Ubiquiti AP's in this house. I don't want to invest that kind of time and money since the property isn't mine but I may not have a choice if I want reliable connectivity.
Running 1.9.1.12 here in AP mode, with a nVidia Shield TV Pro hooked up via Ethernet to my satellite upstairs, running mtr against it from a hardwired Linux server in the wiring closet for over 48 hours (presumably long enough for the firmware check to fire at least once). 0 packet drops, 3.3ms average (over 5GHz backhaul), 12.2ms worst-case. If update checks were as disruptive as you claim, this simply would not have been possible.
I'm not questioning that you're having issues, but I strongly question your determination of root cause. Unless I got Magical Unicorn(TM) Orbis, what you describe did not happen, at least not for the reasons you believe.
Rodney
I get what you're saying Rodney and I understand. You don't have an issue so it doesn't exist for you. It's all in what the individual experiences. As mentioned time and time again in this thread and others. This firmware release has been a mixed bag. For some people it solves all their problems and for others, like myself, it has caused problems. I would simply like the option to disable auto updates for myself. Make it a manual process to disable them so the average user doesn't do it. Just give me the option to do so because 1.8.0.6 version of the firmware is 100% stable for me. My Orbi setup is useless with this new firmware.
It is fair to question my conclusion since you didn't see the work done. Link to post 48 where I show my work. Whenever my Orbi units go up to the new 1.9 firmware they start having packet loss issues. Drop them down to 1.8 and leave them alone and they stop dropping. It's like clockwork 15-25 minutes and boom several seconds of packet loss on version 1.9.1.12. I have, however, hit a different problem. Since I am actively blocking their update at the firewall level. Whenever I'm on the Orbi web management portal. I get small spurts of packet loss when the units try to check for updates or load the main dashboard. I can live with that for now since the rest of the time they are 100% stable.
@Ts937km No IPv6 on my end. My EdgeLite Router is configured in IPv4 only. I can switch to IPv6 for my Internet conneciton but that is disabled right now.
Part of my confusion is the similarity of our setups - I'm on FiOS, front-ended by an EdgeRouter and using Orbi in AP mode, and I can't _make_ mine fail, even when I've deliberately tried. There has to be something else going on here. I agree there appear to be two camps, those who never have problems and those who often do, but assuming the hardware is indeed 100% identical, there's some other variable (outside of the firmware revision) we're all missing.
Different hardware internals is a possibility. These companies source their hardware from different vendors so the internals in your unit could be different from mine. It could also be a bad batch of units. I will check if there is a hardware revision version on my units. Also, I don't use FIOS. I'm on comcast and thought it was a comcast issue at first until I switched to the Asus AC68U and packet loss went away. Also, downgrading from 1.9 to 1.8 fixes my problem also.
I was on travel this past week. I returned home today, and discovered my Orbi did auto-update to 1.9.x (after blocking http and https TCP, not UDP). I did see the previous posts indicating the additional firewall steps required to block Orbi auto-update. I will work on that this weekend (Netgear, I have a work and personal life, hence not extensive time to continue fighting Orbi).
And yes, my family told me this morning that “the internet began having problem in the past 2 days”. I wonder why????
The good news….
Netgear sent me an invite for a beta code release. But, they asked me to sign/agree to an NDA. So, to avoid losing my access to the beta code I now have, forgive me for not sharing too much.
I have the files as of 30 minutes ago and will load that new code/firmware tonight (after family goes to sleep).
May the force be with me, and with us ALL.
And thank you Netgear for showing me, and us all, that you seem to be listening and you care.
Yep believe it or not, the Netgear folks are listening and are working hard to fix our issues. I think most of the complaints will be resolved in the next major firmware push. It will be nice when they get most of these complaints fixed so they can start working on my list of enhancements! LOL
I was on travel this past week. I returned home today, and discovered my Orbi did auto-update to 1.9.x (after blocking http and https TCP, not UDP). I did see the previous posts indicating the additional firewall steps required to block Orbi auto-update. I will work on that this weekend (Netgear, I have a work and personal life, hence not extensive time to continue fighting Orbi).
And yes, my family told me this morning that “the internet began having problem in the past 2 days”. I wonder why????
The good news….
Netgear sent me an invite for a beta code release. But, they asked me to sign/agree to an NDA. So, to avoid losing my access to the beta code I now have, forgive me for not sharing too much.
I have the files as of 30 minutes ago and will load that new code/firmware tonight (after family goes to sleep).
May the force be with me, and with us ALL.
And thank you Netgear for showing me, and us all, that you seem to be listening and you care.
How does one go about gaining said beta access?
I ask because as I've mentioned before I had to revise my blocking methods. It's only thanks to my Ubiquiti router that I have so far been able to avoid the update. I even tried to manually update it a few days ago to see if maybe I was losing my mind but the packet loss problem came back as expected.
