Re: WiFi dropping (LAN is fine)

michaelkenward · ‎2019-05-06

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Thus one reason why I ask about modems in my post queries.

Me too. It is one of those "boilerplate" questions. But that does not stop some people from thinking we are being pedantic.

Fortunately, people like Microsoft are getting more clever at spotting these things and Windows 10 at least will sometimes spot this and flash up a "Double NAT" warning.

Maybe one day Netgear will get around to adding this to its own installation software.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-06

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Most users are not even aware.

Really. I shudder to think what would happen if my father tried to setup one of these himself. It would not end well...

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-06

Ya I know. Some router Mfr have started implementing some upstream ruoter detection in there setup wizards. This has been helping some. Still doesn't get past the double NAT issue and I presume thats one thing router mfrs are not willing to step into as again, they don't wanna mess with the ISP Modem and give bridge mode settings a try or using the modems DMZ as a alternative method as this would be a security concern for some, however it shouldn't be as your just moving the firewall from the modem to the router behind the modem/router. No different then having a stand alone modem and a router working.

All this came about when modems started doing router jobs.

@michaelkenward wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Thus one reason why I ask about modems in my post queries.

Me too. It is one of those "boilerplate" questions. But that does not stop some people from thinking we are being pedantic.

Fortunately, people like Microsoft are getting more clever at spotting these things and Windows 10 at least will sometimes spot this and flash up a "Double NAT" warning.

Maybe one day Netgear will get around to adding this to its own installation software.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-06

Some people are just not electronically inclinded is all. Why we family members are around to help for those of us who are inclinded.

@gr8sho wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Most users are not even aware.

Really. I shudder to think what would happen if my father tried to setup one of these himself. It would not end well...

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-06

@michaelkenward wrote:

Me too. It is one of those "boilerplate" questions. But that does not stop some people from thinking we are being pedantic.

Fortunately, people like Microsoft are getting more clever at spotting these things and Windows 10 at least will sometimes spot this and flash up a "Double NAT" warning.

Maybe one day Netgear will get around to adding this to its own installation software.

I suppose that depends on how hard it is to program the Orbi's firmware. They already have a routine to their credit to automatically modify the LAN subnet to avoid conflict with the host router's subnet. If it's that easy to detect double NAT, then they should default the Orbi setup to run as AP mode with the right assoicated verbiage.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-06

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Some people are just not electronically inclinded is all. Why we family members are around to help for those of us who are inclinded.

<waving hand> BTDT!!!

And theny there are those who know just a little bit to get themselves into a deep hole and not even realize it's time to stop digging.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-06

Sometimes you have to learn the hard way too.

@gr8sho wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Some people are just not electronically inclinded is all. Why we family members are around to help for those of us who are inclinded.

<waving hand> BTDT!!!

And theny there are those who know just a little bit to get themselves into a deep hole and not even realize it's time to stop digging.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-06

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Ya I know. Some router Mfr have started implementing some upstream ruoter detection in there setup wizards. This has been helping some. Still doesn't get past the double NAT issue and I presume thats one thing router mfrs are not willing to step into as again, they don't wanna mess with the ISP Modem and give bridge mode settings a try or using the modems DMZ as a alternative method as this would be a security concern for some, however it shouldn't be as your just moving the firewall from the modem to the router behind the modem/router. No different then having a stand alone modem and a router working.

All this came about when modems started doing router jobs.

Probably depends on the amount of returns and dissatisfaction the problem generates. By the time people get around to posting here and if in fact they are suffering from double NAT, the damage has already been done.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-06

I presume some users do either call in to the ISP or router Mfr. Not sure if ISPs offer the alternative suggestions that we do here in the forums. I know some do, however I presume most others avoid and tell the user to contact the router mfr. ISP should be a bit more helpful with modem gateways and external routers. Same goes for router Mfr, they should be able to help the user know about there modem "gateways" and at least direct them to the ISP for bridging or DMZ options. Would be on way to help gain better user experiences with there router systems.

@gr8sho wrote:

@FURRYe38 wrote:

Ya I know. Some router Mfr have started implementing some upstream ruoter detection in there setup wizards. This has been helping some. Still doesn't get past the double NAT issue and I presume thats one thing router mfrs are not willing to step into as again, they don't wanna mess with the ISP Modem and give bridge mode settings a try or using the modems DMZ as a alternative method as this would be a security concern for some, however it shouldn't be as your just moving the firewall from the modem to the router behind the modem/router. No different then having a stand alone modem and a router working.

All this came about when modems started doing router jobs.

Probably depends on the amount of returns and dissatisfaction the problem generates. By the time people get around to posting here and if in fact they are suffering from double NAT, the damage has already been done.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-06

There's at least one thread here that would suggest otherwise, but there are also cases where the ISP forums do offer help on bridge mode. I know because I am one of those that give the help. 🙂

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-06

Awesome.

@gr8sho wrote:

There's at least one thread here that would suggest otherwise, but there are also cases where the ISP forums do offer help on bridge mode. I know because I am one of those that give the help. 🙂

Lyenyo · ‎2019-05-08

Hi guys,

Thank you for the responces, I appreciate the insightful knowledge on this subject.

I wasn't aware of double NATs and never tried the Orbi in AP mode. I decided to nuke the system and start from scratch again. I put the Virgin HUB into Modem mode, ran the Orbi setup and then changed it to AP mode. Unfortunately, once I applied AP mode.. the WiFi stopped working and was sitting on "no internet" and the LAN was saying "invalid IP config" which then turned all satellites solid magenta which I could not reset despite disconnecting ethernet cables etc. I tried IP scanning to get to the Orbi's webpage but it couldn't see the system. Only the PIN reset could clear this.

I haven't tried manual bridge settings on my Virign hub nor played around with static IPs since I can't say I'm that confident in what I would be doing. (if I knew it was going to be this involved to just extend my WiFi I wouldn't have bothered buying this in the first place but the product page convinced me otherwise)

I'm willing to try this again though as for the first 3 months that this was working, it was amazing...

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-08

When you put the modem in to modem only mode, you then need to configure the Orbi for Router mode, not AP mode. AP mode is for only if your modem can't be fully bridged.

michaelkenward · ‎2019-05-08

@Lyenyo wrote:

I wasn't aware of double NATs and never tried the Orbi in AP mode. I decided to nuke the system and start from scratch again. I put the Virgin HUB into Modem mode, ran the Orbi setup and then changed it to AP mode.

That is not the way to do it.

One of those devices has to be in router mode.

If the Virgin HUB is in modem mode, then the Orbi should be in router mode.

Put the Orbi into AP mode only if the hub is in modem/router mode.

As it is, you have effectively disabled Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP), the bit that assigns an IP address to the things on your network. No surprise, then, that nothing works.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-08

I’d also have a computer hardwired to the RBR50 to access the management console.

michaelkenward · ‎2019-05-08

@gr8sho wrote:
I’d also have a computer hardwired to the RBR50 to access the management console.

Nice to have, but I find that the wired link does little, it anything, that you cannot do with wifi.

The Android app can actually show stuff that is hidden with the browser interface. Like the map of what is connected to what.

Neither works if you don't have a router on the network.

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-08

Can’t bring up the management console without an active internet connection? Seems unusual based on all the routers I’ve had here.

michaelkenward · ‎2019-05-09

@gr8sho wrote:
Can’t bring up the management console without an active internet connection?

Where did that come from?

gr8sho · ‎2019-05-09

@michaelkenward wrote:

@gr8sho wrote:
Can’t bring up the management console without an active internet connection?

Where did that come from?

When the topic of resetting the Orbi was raised and it was suggested to have an Ethernet connected PC during the process for better control, the response seemed to suggest it wasn't possible without an internet connection, at least that's how I read it.

Lyenyo · ‎2019-05-10

Oh 😐
Essentially I’m back to square one then. As from the day I bought it, I originally had the Virgin in Modem mode and Orbi in Router mode.

FURRYe38 · ‎2019-05-10

This is the preferred modes for these two units.

@Lyenyo wrote:
Oh 😐
Essentially I’m back to square one then. As from the day I bought it, I originally had the Virgin in Modem mode and Orbi in Router mode.