Possible Fix for iPhone Dropping WiFi

[donawalt]

@Roc1 a thought - since the flip WiFi->cell happens a lot on your phone, why don't you try turning off cellular just as a test? It would be interesting to see what happens, does it stay on WiFi then (which seems like it might be WiFi Assist kicking in even though I think you have turned that off), or does it just show no connection/no WiFi/no cellular until Wi-Fi comes back? It might be a good data point for the people you are working with...?

[Roc1]

donawalt, turning off data assist was the first thing I did 2-months ago, it is still off. I also turned off cellular data a few times over the months to see if that helped, Orbi WiFi still cycled off, then back on.

While sitting outside on a 95-degree day in Alabama all afternoon yesterday on all my calls, I realized our “flip” issue has nothing to do with cellular.

I’m in Birmingham but I’m on the very outside fringe of ATT cell service. My closest cell tower (Bham has a ridge of the Applachian’s right through the middle of the metro, so I don’t hit any of the cell towers on the South side of the ridge, where all Bham growth has been the last 30 years) is 6 miles away adjacent to a major interstate. Inside my wood-frame house, I have at most 2-bars, outside 2-3 cell bars of service. For years, during am/pm rush hours when interstate is full of cell phones with strong signals, ATT 100% of time will automatically send any cell call to my cell phone, directly to voice-mail, my cell doesn’t ring even once at my house (the old “all circuits/frequencies are busy now” with strong cell signals!). My weak cell signal has no chance competing with 10’s of thousands of “strong cell signals” on the interstate. If I happen to be using the cell phone (like yesterday afternoon) voice service works fine until 4pm. But, even outside, yesterday at 4:01pm, my call to Netgear Support dropped. It also dropped my call to Apple support round 5-ish. I always make sure (for long duration calls to Support groups), they know of the high probability of a dropped call, so they automatically call me back (even though I have to go outside or ATT sends the call to voicemail!).

With such a weak cell signal, how could it be “overpowering” my Orbi WiFi signal and make it oscillate between WiFi and 5G?? It became apparent to me while discussing this with Apple support, we have a NG WIFI stability issue!

Think about it, from WiFi’s day-one, your phone is built to use a strong WiFi signal. It automatically falls back to cellular when WiFi signal drops. At my house, how could cellular ever be strong enough to “overpower” WiFi? Our iPhones are doing what they are supposed to do. They use Orbi WiFi until it drops (poor WiFi stability) and then automatically switches to cellular. When Orbi WiFi “re-powers on”, our phones drop cellular and “attempt” to do what they are supposed to do automatically - reconnect to our main SSID. As we both have figured out, we have to “power cycle” the iPhones WIFI toggle, or I connect to Orbi 2.4 SSID, which always works for me. This “wakes up” our Orbi connection, and then I can use phone settings to change from IoT to main wifi SSID.

I’ve had a few occurrences of instability since I installed the new RBE971 late May, but my NG case related to the “slow upload speeds” which you’ve proven, (and I believe your research) and which I’ve come to realize over months of NG Support directed reconfigurations of my 971, is related only to a malfunctioning internal Speedtest.net service that NG pays Ookla $/installed test/year to include in their NG routers!

I missed this part when NG Level 3 Support (I thought it strange, but I dismissed it) was on the phone directing me last month to make config changes to my 971, and then having me run speed tests from the Orbi App to capture debug info. I had to use web gui to turn on debug capture in the router, so since I was already “inside” the router, I suggested to NG Level 3 that I could also try running some speed tests from the web gui (which would be a dumb thing to do anyway since I can’t imagine the web gui would use a separate Ookla Speedtest internal App than the one I was accessing using the Orbi App!). NG Level 3 Support replied immediately “No, we don’t use that Speedtest (???), it doesn’t provide reliable results”!! What?? A month later, I finally put 2 and 2 together, something you proved on the 960 with actual duplicate testing.

Anyway, two weeks ago NG had me make more 971 config changes. Still “erroneous” slow upload speeds, but those changes dramatically impacted my WIFI stability. I just put that piece of the puzzle together yesterday!!

I’ll call ATT today, and see if there’s some internal router setting I/NG has incorrect. I’m old, and at the moment I don’t remember the names of the two options an ISP router can use to help you configure your router behind their ISP Router/Gateway, but ATT doesn’t offer the “best” and easiest option to do that, we ATT ISP users have to use the lessor “work around” option (sorry I can’t use the actual terms right now). I don’t know about Comcast ISP equipment, so I’m not sure if you have the
best/easiest, or “bastardized” way. I’ll update after I hopefully speak with a competent tech (you know how “pot-luck” works!) that can help us out.

[donawalt]

Yep that's what I was wondering - so you proved it's not the cell service involvement at all, it's just WiFi blinking out - so then cell phone takes over because there is no WiFi. And when WiFi comes back however it happens, it takes over again. Nice.

Re you comment "I don’t remember the names of the two options an ISP router can use to help you configure your router behind their ISP Router/Gateway" - it could just be a nomenclature issue, but if your statement is accurate you should not have 2 routers running at the same time. This scenario pops up in the Comcast world for people who run both Comcast router/modem and an Orbi system. What people do here is to run the Comcast router/modem as a "bridge", and then run the Orbi router as just a router per usual. Some also keep the Comcast router/modem running as a router, and there is a setting on your web admin page to run the Orbi router as an Access Point.With 2 routers you are going to see weirdnesses.  If you think this is your situation (2 routers), ask questions (maybe start a new thread as it's a different topic) and you;ll get plenty of help here!

[Roc1]

Bridge and Passthrough!! That’s what I was looking for! ATTs ISP fiber box (BRG500 or 501) have the ONT, Modem, and router inside the same box (Gateway).

Bridge is preferred and easiest way, ATT doesn’t offer that. We have to use Passthrough, and add this MAC, and disable that setting and all this other config crap!!

I didn’t finish your question about turning off cellular data (poor memory). As we’ve discussed, when 5G kicks in, Orbi settings still shows you are connected to main SSID (but you’re really not). With cellular data turned off, and when 5G “flips back off” because it thinks WiFi turned back on, you have no connection with WiFi or cellular. So when 5G “drops” your cell phone thinks you are back on WIFI. But, you have to do the iPhone WiFi Setting power cycle to get Orbi WiFi to recognize the SSID and kick back in. Imagine if I had to do that over 40 times yesterday! So that’s what happens with cellular data turned off, it doesn’t keep your router from dropping the WiFi connection (thus, the stability issue)

Ok, so when I talk to ATT today, if you have Bridge mode and I have Pass-Through, any ATT recommendations for me might not help you, but I’ll still pass them on.

Remember, my 971 has been working (sometimes crazily) since May. My stability went South after NG had me do reconfigs for the last Speedtest debug process. After NG reconfigures my router to “try” their latest Speedtest brainstorm, they just leave my router config like it was for that test. This last “test” is when my WiFi stability went through the roof.

If I get a helpful ATT support tech today, and we get my pass-through settings correct again, NG can work with Ookla to get their issue corrected (I don’t think they are very concerned as I’m sure they know it’s a Speedtest issue and not an upload speed issue). So after you confirmed, I’m not spending anymore time on the speed upload case because it has nothing to do with actual upload speeds!

I will pursue the stability issue, because that is mentioned numerous times on the NG Community. And, there’s actual many more 971 issues I’ve uncovered that NG needs to fix e.g., none of my IoT devices (even if in the same room with the router) connect to the 971 IoT SSID, they only connect to the furthest Satellite with weakest connection. I then have to go into IoT device settings and change its WiFi to my main router SSID at 2.4 band and it will connect to 971 with stronger WiFi, but not on 971 IoT SSID.

I also don’t think the mesh transfer works as it should. Even if I’m in the office where the 971 is located, my iPhone is always connected to a satellite on other end of the house. There is something not right about the 971 internal switching process for any band.

What worries me the most is the person last month on NG Community that had a new WiFi 7 cell phone that wouldn’t connect to the 971 mesh. He spoke multiple times with NG Support. Every time they sent him back to cell phone manufacturer.

He finally purchased a TP link WiFi 7, his WiFi 7 cell phone connected instantly, he returned the NG 971 mesh system to NG!

So what happens if Apple doesn’t offer WiFi 7 until 2025 fall version of iPhone. Will I find out then that my $2300 WiFi 7 was wasted money?

I ran into this last year when I was first on my block (or US!) to buy the new unlocked NG MR6550 $1200 mobile cellular router. I had nothing but problems. NG was no help, their techs didn’t even know what an MR6550 was! They kept sending me back to Verizon (yes, I have to have a Verizon sim to make my ATT cell have data connection at our farm property!) finally after 3-months, NG agreed to replace my MR6550. They always had me check to see if I was on the current version of MR6550 software.

It was unbelievable, the screens were different, the options were different and greatly expanded, and it worked perfectly!! So did NG first send me a half-baked beta version of their new WiFi 6 (or is it 6E??) MR6550?!?!

NG also removed the web config option (page 74/75 of their Oct? 2023 300+page version of the 971 manual. It shows how to adjust power for 2.4 and 5 bands. With my onboarding IoT problems, NG community referred users (for previous versions of routers like your 960) to the NG KB about reducing 5Gb band power to 25% (NG didn’t offer the ability to turn it off??) so I immediately went to the 971 file, found power options, and fired up my web gui into 971. I went to the location specified in their most current manual . . . no power options anywhere! Apparently, NG removed those options in some firmware upgrade. The capability to turn off 5G is a necessity, even with their 2.4IoT SSID, that doesn’t work for iPhone apps that have always on 2.4 and 5Ghz bands if the IoT onboarding App needs to do IoT device config settings for the device. Even if the IoT is connected to Orbi 2.4 band on main SSID like I have to do for IoTs located in the same room with the 971 (I can’t get devices to connect to the 971 IoT SSID, they connect to 970 satellites and I have to “move them” to main SSID on 2.4 band). If my onboarding requires the IoT app to talk to the 2.4 IoT device connected to the main SSID on 2.4, my iPhone connects to main SSID at 5Ghz, not 2.4Ghz. The 2.4 IoT won’t listen to a 5Ghz App!! I can’t finish onboarding!! NG still needs an option to turn off 5G band. Note, our iPhone 15 pro max gives us an option to turn of WiFi 6E (so that disables the 6Ghz connection to main SSID when trying to onboard 2.4 IoT’s!).

I’m tired of spending that kind of money for their “innovative” products, and I want my 971 to work as advertised.

[donawalt]

"I’m tired of spending that kind of money for their “innovative” products, and I want my 971 to work as advertised." - Aww come on, @Roc1 , this is fun! What else is there to do? 😆

On the 960 series, the 2.4 and 5 GHz power adjustments are on the Advanced tab/Advanced section/Wireless settings. See if it's the same for you.

One other thing to try, to eliminate things. Do you run with IPv6 enabled? If so, turn it off. We have seen a number of problems with it. I run it enabled too, I am going to try turning it off to see how things work. You can always turn it on again if you see it does not help, if it does you can leave it disabled as nothing requires it yet - many people don't even have it still.

[Roc1]

lol! The location for the Orbi power settings you provided are shown in that same location as specified on page 74-75 of the 971 manual. They are gone now.

There was a 971 reference to the same location 950 posts ago and earlier this year (before I bought my 971) for 971 WiFi power settings when another Community member had issues on boarding. They were on the 971 web gui then because the Community member turning the 5Ghz power down on his 971 didn’t help him onboard IoT’s. So those settings were an option earlier this year on the 971 web gui. They are now missing from that location. I’ve gone through every option on the 971 gui, they are no longer included.

Yes, I’ve seen the ipv6 recommendation. I need to do that. Unfortunately I’m not as network savvy as you and other members are. I wouldn’t know an ipv6 if one bit me on the behind!!

I didn’t know if I needed it on or not so I thought, I’m paying for it! Sure I’ll turn it on!! If you don’t know what you’re doing, I’ve always found the more options you use, the more you get for your money!! Maybe this was an incorrect application of that thought!

[CrimpOn]

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@Roc1 wrote:
lol! The location for the Orbi power settings you provided are shown in that same location as specified on page 74-75 of the 971 manual. They are gone now.

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I am confused.  Page 72 of the 971 User Manual shows this:

Is the comment that

• These instructions are not on page 74-75 (which they are not), or that
• This feature no longer appears on the Advanced Tab->Advanced Menu -> Wireless Settings?

I have seen posts remarking that Netgear has removed Transmission Power settings from several Nighthawk routers. In each case, the change was described clearly in the Firmware Release Notes for the version that made the change.

I have reviewed the Release Notes for every firmware release shown on the 971 router firmware downloads page and do not see any mention of this feature being removed.

(Having no 971, I cannot bring up the web interface and check this myself.)

[FURRYe38]

Power settings were removed last year while in beta. Not sure if it will be returned. 

[CrimpOn]

Thanks.  Way to go, Netgear.Silly to expect that the User Manual would reflect what the router does (and does not do).

(sigh)

[FURRYe38]

I have a feeling the UM is a template that they took from the 960 series. Probably planned to have power settings in there but they ran in to issues early on and took it out. So depending on how things go, NG may or may not bring it back. Ya, the UM will need to be updated for sure. For now, nothing we can do. 

[Roc1]

Crimpon, my page numbers were wrong, and I confused the 971 manual with another 300 page manual. The 971 manual is 168 pages. I was in my 971 web gui today. There are no settings in any tab in the 971 Web gui that allows you to change power on any band now.

I know in earlier NG Community posts from February-ish, a member stated they tried 25% (greatest reduction NG apparently allowed) RBE971 power reduction for 5Mz band and it was not enough to get their IoT to on-board. I just installed my 971 in late May, I’ve only had one firmware update (the current version I believe) so even though the 971 Manual as you showed describes it, it is no longer a 971 router option. There needs to be a way to turn it off. I have multiple issues on 1 open case now with NG (not the power issue), but if/when they resolve one of these issues in this 2-month old Open Case, the push to have capability to turn off 5Mhz band is on my list. The IoT SSID is not the answer to the problem unless NG fixes something in my 971. All my IoT’s are located close to the 971. When I onboard them to IOT SSID, they only connect to my farthest away Satellite with low WiFi strength. Once I get them to connect to satellite at 2.4, I go into the IoT device and change the WiFi connection to the main 971 SSID. The IoT device will then move to my 971 main SSID. After that, my iPhone will only connect to the 971 router at 2.4 and 5ghz band. If I need to make IoT device changes that involves communication between my IoT App and the device, I’m in trouble. Without the ability to connect to 971 main SSID (that my IoT device is connected to after I moved it from the Satellite with weak connection) at only 2.4 (which my iPhone can’t do because iPhone can’t turn off 5Ghz band, and RBE 971 can’t turn off 5Ghz band) my iPhone connects to main SSID at 5Mhz band and the IoT 2.4 device can’t hear my 5Mhz App trying to talk config changes with it.

[Roc1]

donawalt, I talked to ATT yesterday afternoon. I didn’t get lucky on my Support Tech. She was knowledgeable, but not as tech savvy as a few tech’s I’ve spoken with in the past. She checked all my ATT Gateway “Passthrough” settings (remember, unlike your Comcast (?) ISP, we have no Bridge option) and she said everything looked perfect on my Gateway for Pass-through. She knew nothing about NG routers and couldn’t make any suggestions on possible setting changes that might impact our unstable WiFi connections. I expected this, because I wouldn’t think any of the config changes NG has made in my 971 to identify and resolve the “slow upload speed” issue that started as my original Case (which has now been expanded to include the WiFi instability issue since my occurrences skyrocketed after they made the last 971 config changes several weeks ago) would include any Passthrough settings changes in my 971, especially since there are actually very few changes associated with configuring it anyway.

I updated my Case (and included more info on both slow speed and instability issues, both now under the same Case number) yesterday morning and added the qty of instantaneous instability flips from full WiFi strength to 5G cell or vice versa while I was talking to NG Level 2 about “said” flips (my poor memory estimated at least 40 over the 2-hour call, I didn’t count them, but I did announce them to NG tech every time one occurred, he was stunned) and also the instability flip occurrences with my Apple call to tech support following my NG call as NG was trying to push me back to Apple (surprise!) as they initially implied it was a cell issue (which it is not) and Apple verified for me that they have no known open or closed Cases related to this issue with any Router manufacturer. Again, I didn’t count the “flips” during that 30-min conversation but I announced them. To my surprise, the Apple tech had been counting them! There were 11 in our 30 minutes! This qty would equate to approximately 44 occurrences over a 2-hour call (like with NG), so I guess my NG call estimate of 40 flips was closer than I expected my memory to be!

So I have no config suggestions you might try with your Bridge config on your 960, sorry.

Within an hour (and while I was on the phone with ATT tech), I received two calls and voice mails from NG tech to discuss my updated case (amazing after I’d just an hour before provided NG info that I felt the slow speed issue was an erroneous measurement issue, and how quickly I wanted them to help me change my 971 config settings back to what they were before the Speedtest debug process to stop this disruptive number of WiFi instability flips!!)

They also updated my case, and want me to do more debug captures and different Speedtests (e.g. try standing only on my right foot when I tap the “Test” button, etc etc etc!) and screen shots for their engineers. (I’ve almost worn out my Speedtest buttons on my ATT Gateway, RBE971 Orbi app, and the Ookla App on my iPhone connected via WiFi to the 971!!). I think this is because I really “emphasized” I wanted them to help me change my configs back to what they were before they had me change them twice over the last month or so (I don’t remember what we changed) that set off this avalanche of WiFi instability, all trying to identify and correct an Ookla internal Speedtest issue in the RBE 971.

You verified the same erroneous results with your 960 that were not impacting actual physical uploads, just erroneous results. So I’m not pursuing the RBE971 slow upload speed issue as we’ve both determined (with help from NG tech during my last set of debug/speedtests when I suggested to NG tech in addition to all the Orbi App initiated 971 internal speed tests, since I was also logged in to the 971 web gui that I could easily perform internal speed tests with the gui as well so NG engineers could compare results, she replied “no, we don’t use the gui Speedtest, they’re not correct”?!?!? So do we actually think NG pays Speedtest a yearly fee per Router that includes their internal test, that NG has physically installed two different Speedtest equipment/software in all our routers?? That cleared up the 971 slow upload speed issue for me, even though it appears NG must now be trying to make their case to Ookla that NG deserves a credit for their annual usage payments!! NG has not closed this part of my two-part open case.

I’ll perform this process yet again (3rd time) but they are not making any more config changes to my Router before these tests, so I’ll do this process today. takes me about 3-hrs. I bought a cheap laptop to use as my router, gateway, & NG switch gui interface, and I know I’m easily confused, that’s why I always store files (in this case, the debug file) on my Desktop but I can never find them when I’m ready to attach them to my NG case and I use the “browse file” process. This laptop appears to have at least 5 different “Desktop” locations!! There must be one for every Cloud (Apple, Google, etc etc) that I never installed on the cheap laptop since I use it only for gui’s!!

Then I have to edit/compile my screen shots and send them via email. It’s a slow process for me!

Anyway, after these tests, I want them to either reset my config settings to get my WiFi instability flips back down to my normal 2-3/week, or better yet, figure out the cause, and update firmware on our 971 and 960’s. I’ll update when I hear more from NG on our WiFi stability Case.

Oh yes, I disabled ipv6 in my 971. I’ll see if I notice a change next time I’m onboarding IoT’s.

[donawalt]

@Roc1 wow you have a lot more drops than I do. Mine have a very specific use case, walking from one location (usually around the router) to an RBS on an upper floor where there is no router signal (it's in the basement). I had 1 yesterday, I waited, and it came back on its own within a minute. But I don't get the dozens of drops you are getting, something else going on there!

As I was reading, it occurred to me as well I do not have an IoT network enabled, nor do I have a guest network enabled. I also have no Armor Security.

I don't think you answered @FURRYe38 's questions in post 2, the answers might give some ideas. I am wondering if you are on the firmware release that many have been getting off of, due to problems. So:

What Firmware version is currently loaded?

What is the size of your home? Sq Ft?
What is the distance between the router 📡 and satellite(s)🛰️? 30 feet or more is recommended in between RBR 📡 and RBS 🛰️ to begin with depending upon building materials when wired or wirelessly connected.
https://kb.netgear.com/31029/Where-should-I-place-my-Orbi-satellite ‌‌🛰

What iOS version are you using? 

[Roc1]

donawalt, i noticed your problem 1-2 months ago. I too have that issue, the 970 Mesh doesn’t seem to “mesh”. I can be 8’ from 971 router, and it will still be connected to a 970 satellite on other end of house. Or, My devices don’t connect to the physically closest mesh point. So if you are moving around home and your 860 “flips to 5G, I think that might be more related to an NG mesh firmware issue (like a cell tower unable to measure signal strength correctly and not connecting the closest tower to the strongest signal!). I do know this is another issue with my 971, and since our router’s are really “double first cousins” I’ll add your 860 “handoff” issue to my list and make sure NG knows my slow/no handoff appears in the 860 as well.

Furry is my mentor!! He’s taught me everything I’ve learned on this community (my memory loss complicates things that I post on NG Community, so don’t blame Furry for my misstatements!!).

Furry worked for months directly with NG engineers and actually got this subject on the community first access to firmware version (current 971 version I believe) but his firmware version worked very well on my unit.

I don’t think my issue is related to firmware, unless NG has my config settings for working on slow upload speed issue that are now conflicting with the current firmware version. My avalanche of drops just started after the 2nd config changes they had me do to run my 2nd set of internal RBE971 Speedtests, capture screenshots, and provide debug file after the tests. I have to do more today for NG, but they left my config settings the same for this 3rd set of test/pictures/debugs as we used for the 2nd set.

After today, I’m hoping I can go back to “normal” config and my drop/flips will return to my normal 2-3 per week (which are probably related to the mesh hand-off issue) as those drops only flip to 5G cell when I’m slightly further than normal from a mesh node. I only have 2 bars of ATT signal inside house, and 2.5 bars outside house on a good day. That’s why it was so strange as to why my 971 started flipping so frequently between strong WiFi and weak 5G!! My mesh hand-off issue doesn’t flip me to 5G unless I’m outside, or inside but close to an outside wall. My WiFi just goes from 3-ripple strength to 0 strength (no hand-off to another mesh node). On my “normal” 2-3 drops per week, sometimes I’m moving between mesh nodes, sometimes I’m sitting in same spot.

I’ll update you as the Case moves through NG engineering.

[donawalt]

@Roc1 , I just saw that a few days ago a Reddit user reported that the 5G/Wifi drops on his late model Apple devices went away when he turned off W-Fi 6E Mode, from Automatic to Off. It's in Settings/Wi-Fi/Tap the 'i' on your connected network and you'll see it.

You are getting so many drops, have you tried that? It's expensive (losing some nice speed) if that's the workaround, but it might be good to know and pass on to your support person!

[kjx]

I've had this general issue in one room in my home with all 6E devices (iPad Pro M4, iPhone 15 Pro Max, iPhone 15 Pro, etc.) - the closest satellite was separated by 2 walls in direct line of sight. The devices would have extremely fast connections up to 1.4 Gbps up/down but would randomly drop WiFi for no apparent reason. When this happens, the assigned IP visible in Wifi settings would also change from one in the assignable range to something like 169.254.xxx.yyy - check if you see this symptom.

My original 970 and a brand-new RMA set (overheating) displayed the exact same issues. The thing that fixed this was to move the satellite into this 6E-device saturated room with direct line of sight to the devices. Minor decrease in perf in going from wired backhaul to wireless for this one satellite (down to 1.2 Gigs, and pings take 10 ms now), but the drops went away.

The take-away for me is that 6E on the 970 (and likely in general due to higher frequencies) is highly sensitive to walls in the way between the device and the router or satellite. This is likely what you need to address - you may need more satellites if repositioning them strategically doesn't help. It's baffling though that these drops happen in what seem to be otherwise great reception areas (consistent 1.4 gigs is nothing to laugh at on a mobile device).

If you find your device doesn't like to hand over connections between satellites / router and you notice it, simply flip airplane mode on and off quickly. Apple devices seem to tolerate going into the 200 Mbps range before deciding to switch.

[Roc1]

donawalt, with my weak 5G cell signal both inside and outside the house, I’ve figured out I have to be a couple rooms away from the router (closer to the outside weak cell signal) to get the avalanche of drops/flips I documented last week. I’ve been spending more time in my home office (where the 971 is located) these last 3-days so I haven’t noticed it happening once. This observation, coupled with your info that your 5G cell “flips” happen when your moving between mesh nodes. I think the mesh stops our WiFi signals going from Node to Node allowing 5G cell signal to try and connect to cell phone (I think this theory is proven in that we’ve noticed our iPhones still show WiFi connection to Orbi even with the 5G Cell icon showing on our screens!). Or it might be that the Orbi’s cell strength threshold settings in the Orbi Routers need re-adjusting so the router doesn’t drop the WiFi connection (thinking 5G cell signal is strong so we must be moving toward cellular and away from WiFi, causing both mesh nodes to drop our WiFi connection instead of passing it off to the other node). I’ll work on this WiFi Stabilization issue if we ever close my 2-month old “slow upload speed” Case (which I think really should now be called “incorrect Orbi Internal speed test results”!!)

I did send NG more debug files they requested last Friday, so hopefully sometime this week I will get an update and estimate on fix from NG.

I’m very familiar with that Apple 6E setting (I’m not bragging!), dealing with the 3-bands the 971 has access too, and the issues I’ve had onboarding IoT’s. I always turn off 6E which eliminates 6Ghz WiFi band connections to the router, but that still leaves the 5Ghz band that causes issues sometimes because of the way my IoT’s always onboard to the satellites 2.4 IoT SSID (they won’t connect to the router which is the closest WiFi point for most of my IoT’s.).

So I let them connect with a weak IoT WiFi signal to satellite, then I go into the IoT device settings and change the WiFi to the main router SSID, and it will then connect with a strong WiFi signal to the 971. Unfortunately, if I have to go back into that IoT device again that’s connected to the main SSID, even with 6E turned off, my iPhone connects at 5Ghz band. Some of my older Arlo devices use the Arlo App on my iPhone to communicate with the IoT device to make those config changes. Once I attach the IoT device to the main SSID, since my iPhone connects to 5Mhz band, the App and IoT device won’t communicate!!

I have to reset IoT device, re-onboard to satellite IoT SSID, make the Iot device config change I wanted to make while it was connected to main SSID, then change WIFI on the IoT device back to main router SSID so I have strong WiFi strength with the IoT device. It’s a pain.

Apparently your router used to have a web gui option so you could at least reduce 5GHz band power and move iPhone further away from the router hoping it would drop back to 2.4GHz Connection. Apparently some of the smarter NG Community members posted the 860 and 971 routers have very similar user guides, and apparently since there were some issues with the power option config on your router model, they removed all WIFI power configs from the 860, and apparently didn’t add same capability at 971 launch (or removed it early on with a firmware update), but both my user manual, and your’s has not been updated to remove the steps to make WiFi power config changes.

I know NG thinks their 2.4 IoT SSID solves all IoT on-boarding issues, but it hasn’t for me! They need to add an option in our Orbi’s to turn off both 5 and 6Mhz band’s (what happens if Apple removes “6E off” capability???) Even the Amazon eero routers have an option to temporarily disable 5Mhz/6Mhz (if that band is available in that model eero) for 5 (maybe 10?) mins so your cell phone can only connect to the eero’s 2.4Ghz band, On-boarding issues solved!!

I’ll post again when I hear from NG. Thanks for passing along the 6E “off” option on our iPhone 15 Pro Max models. I think I accidentally just stumbled across it when I had all my initial IoT on-boarding issues.

[Roc1]

kjx, thanks for your input. I too have already noticed 6Ghz band is very “wall intolerant”!

I saw in your earlier posts that you (like me had used Ethernet backhaul initially.) I do have 2 satellites in 2000 Sq ft house, but I think NG needs to work on mesh mode transitions and stability changes. Why won’t any of my IoT’s in the same room as the 971 on-board with a satellite on the other end of the house??? This results in very weak IoT connections with most all of my IoTs that are located in the Office (where 971 is) or all three rooms that share a doorway and a wall with the home office?? I think there’s mesh node handoff issues going on here.

On the flips from WiFi to 5G cellular, see my reply below to donawalt, it will give you insight in what we’ve observed with our iPhone 15 Pro Max 5G cell and Orbi WIFi flips.

I’ll have to check IPs next time this stability/flip issue happens, but what donawalt and I both observed is that in our iPhone settings, even with 5G Cell and strength icons displayed on our phone screens after the flip, iPhone WiFi settings show we are still connected to the Orbi Main SSID!! Your “airplane” mode work around is like “slapping the Orbi in the face” to get it to straighten up!!

If the iPhone was truly in 5G cell mode, the WiFi Setting would show “not connected”. With it still showing the main SSID but not actually being connected to it , I think the mesh node handoff started, and never finished, thus both nodes dropped WiFi, which put iPhone into Cellular mode.

You use Airplane mode to get the Orbi to snap out of the funk, I change my iPhone settings, and connect to the 2.4 IoT SSID which it promptly does (that’s my router “slap in the face”). Then I can select the main SSID and it reconnects until the next “flip/drop”.

I’m not going to WiFi back haul, I spent too much time and money replacing my 25 year old Cat 5e, 6, 6a (I’m old, or is it 5a and 6E??) with Cat 7, 8, and OM4 MM fiber to connect my NG 10Gb home network switches.

I’ll move my MasterBedroom 970 satellite around, even though it’s wired backhaul, there might be some WiFi interference going on with the office RBE971.

If we all work at this with NG, they’ll get the firmware fine-tuned.

Thanks for your suggestions. I’ll post again after a try relocating the satellite. I’ll watch for IP info when I flip again, but donawalt and I thing it’s a mesh handoff/stability issue.

You’ve added another data point to our investigation with you change from wired backhaul to wireless backhaul that corrected most of your stability issue with a satellite. I wonder if the RBE 971 can process “hand off” wireless mesh node WiFi signals easier than wired mesh node handoffs because of software mismatches, wired vs wireless?

[Roc1]

kjx, I’m old and your question about the weird IP messed with my mind. It finally dawned on me, during the flips, when I went to look at details on the main SSID that was still shown as “connected” in iPhone Settings while 5G and cell strength was being displayed, there was no WIFI IP connection info populated, it was all blank.

I’m not in my web gui, but my ATT 5G fiber ONT/Modem/router/Gateway (I’m using Pass-Through to the 971) has a 168 or 169 IP that is shown in the Gateway gui as the “Router (ATT Gateway router) IP” if I recall correctly.

Would that make sense? Could some IP address from your ISP somehow get involved in your iPhone settings if your Orbi Router IP wasn’t available when the cellular provider’s 5G service tried to connect when the Orbi Mesh hand-off went south??

And when the flips first started happening to me 2-months or so ago,(I just installed my new Orbi’s the last week of May), I mistakenly assumed since the SSID was shown in iPhone settings as my WIFI connection, that when the router woke up from its nap, it would reconnect. Wrong! I got within 4’ of the 971, it never connected on its on. I had to do your trick.

I like the way your solution was short and sweet, “do this . . .” and everything is right with world (again!). Not!

Before I started my “back-up” routine, I might be typing a 3-page reply here on the NG Community. Remember, I would have been logged into the Community from the internet connection from my Router. I noticed the 5G Cell icon pop-up several times as I typed my reply. My NG Community reply window was still open on my iPhone and I was just typing away!

Finally finished typing, let me just hit “Post”. What??? Error (of some kind)?? Why did that happen? Oh well, I’ll just refresh my browser and repost. What??? It wiped all my reply text clean!!

So I started the reply I opened with my browser on the 971. When it flipped to 5G cell server, it had no idea what I was trying to do!! Just like trying to reply to an email from your Server, but if the device looses the connection to the server and you just keep “replying”, the network doesn’t know what you’re replying too!

After this WiFi-drop 5G-Cell-flip happened during another post and it wiped the post clean, now, when I finish and before I Post, I Select-All, and Copy to the clipboard. If it wipes me because I didn’t see the “flip”, I just Paste, then Post!

Keep that in mind if you get into drop/flip cycle and your not moving around (Those several times it happened to me, I hadn’t moved from the chair once, and when I started the Post, I had full WiFi strength).

That’s another reason I think the Orbi mesh hand-off doesn’t complete. The satellite says, here it comes, but the Router’s on a coffee break!!

[FURRYe38]

Just FYI, any 169 IP addressing is APIPA and means the devices isn't able to get a normal IPv4 IP address from the servicing DHCP server/router:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link-local_address

[Roc1]

My 6E iPhone started “flipping” numerous times this afternoon again after not doing it for almost a week, but I think Community member ajx below in this thread gave us some good insight into what’s possibly causing this “6E” issue.

He removed his RJ45 wired connection on 1 satellite and went with the RBE wireless backhaul. I don’t know if you have wired or wireless (I use wired, and I’m not switching to wireless with my two satellites!), but the other thing ajx did, he repositioned his satellite inside the room, which apparently reduced band interference between that satellite, and the 971 router.

I’m going to try moving the satellite I think that’s causing my “flipping” issue, but I’ll have to reroute a Cat 7 cable, so I didn’t get to it today.

But I do think ajx (I hope I’m not using the wrong name, but once you start typing a post, you can’t scroll through the thread to recheck the Community member’s “name”, and I already forgot it after I checked it before starting my Reply!).

Since he went to wireless backhaul, and the drop/flips cleared-up (or reduced?) it might be an internal Orbi mesh node-to-node hand off issue that causes our 6E instability to drop devices, and flips into 5G cellular. Maybe the Orbi hard/soft ware can more easily accomplish a wireless backhaul and mesh node transfer easier than a wired backhaul and mesh node transfer, so it drops the WiFi connection during a “wired backhaul” node transfer.

Then in my case, (is your 6E device going to a cellular connection?) cellular 5G jumps in, as it should if WiFi is not available!

I’ve been blaming this for a few months on mesh instability, but I think it might be more of an Orbi device location, and WiFi band strength issue.

It appears my mesh “instability” and flips to cellular 5G occur when I’m stationary in a specific area of the house (possibly an area that has a strong WiFi signal from more than 1 mesh node. After re-evaluating my Orbi deployment locations, I think two (or maybe even all three Orbi devices “thinks” one of the other mesh devices has a stronger WiFi connection to my 6E device, so it drops it’s WiFi connection to my 6E iPhone. If the 2nd mesh nodes “thinks” the same thing, so it decides it shouldn’t offer a WiFi connection to my 6E device, and I flip into 5G cellular.

I’m going to re-orient one of my satellites so I’m not caught in an area where 2 (or more!) mesh nodes think the other node has me, and I end up not connected to any node!

This would be easier to validate/correct if the Orbi 971/970 (and 860 Orbi version also) had the ability to adjust WiFi band power. This was originally a config option in the 860 GUI, and it was in a beta version of the 971 (as I understand from Community member Furrye38), but NG had some kind of issue(s) with band power option on the 860, so they removed the capability with an 860 firmware update, and then did not include it in the 971’s when released (even though the 860/971 Orbi Operator Manuals still have not been updated to remove band power config GUI options!

I’m going to see if I can re-locate the mesh nodes within my home so there won’t be spots where the mesh nodes don’t know who should connect to the device. On the 971 mesh series, the router and satellites each have 12 antennae, so this might not be possible without reducing 5Ghz WiFi band power, or adding a large addition on to my home!!

Since 6GHz band is still being used for non-WIFI purposes by other agency/users, the FCC will not allow any power adjustments on 6GHz at this time.

If any Community member’s are familiar with the NG MR6550 Mobile Router that uses a cellular SIM Card for internet connection, it includes all 3 WiFi bands. But, the FCC apparently prohibits the “mobile” (I.e. vehicular) use of 6Ghz band on that MR6550 for fear of interfering with the other users that have not yet moved off this frequency. NG accomplishes this restriction by only activating the 6Ghz band on the MR6550 when the internal battery is removed, and the unit is plugged into a power outlet (vehicular use could be accomplished with an inverter, or other work around).

This specific MR6550 configuration using 6Ghz band would work great at home where the unit would provide home internet with a cellular data plan, and could be plugged into power full-time the with internal battery permanently removed, which would then activate the 6Ghz WiFi band.

I said all that to say, currently NG can’t allow us to make power changes that might help our WiFi 6E device stability if my theory is correct (maybe not!) about location and WiFi mesh node hand-off confusion.

I’ll update Community after I try moving my nodes around and see if that corrects mesh node hand-off drops, and eliminates 5G cellular service flips.

[donawalt]

an update from me on the Wifi->5G flip problem that others have reported on other threads too - trying to keep it all here!

As others have tried, this weekend I moved one of my RBS 960s across the hall to another place that seemed better - less blockage from walls. My signal tests before/after proved this to be true, in areas that had a weaker WiFi signal. The RBS is still wired backhaul.

For about a day I had no 5G flip problems! But yesterday I had at least 3 - it always gets back to WiFi in about a minute. So the problem is not solved.

This morning I turned off the 'WiFi 6E: Automatic' setting on my iPad and iPhone, both which have had the 5G flip problem. My current theory is it's a WiFi 5 -> 5G -> WiFi 6E transition issue (or the other way around) - the device/router are trying to figure out whether to go from WiFi 5 to 6E or Cell, or to go from WiFi 6E -> 5 or cell. It picks cell for some reason.

I'll report back on results!

[donawalt]

Results - on both the 960 and 970 series, with Wifi 6E - 'Automatic', WiFi flipping to cellular/5G does happen. However, on both Orbi routers, if Wifi 6E - 'Off', no flipping.

[Roc1]

@donawalt, since I relocated what I suspected was the offending satellite from the living room into a bedroom (actually I just “added a wall” between the “offender” and the other two Orbi mesh nodes) I haven’t flipped to 5G cell once in the last 3-days since I made that change.

Also, my 6Ghz WiFi band symmetrical speeds from 971 to my 6E iPhone increased from 1200-ish Mb up to 1400-ish Mb.

At the same time I made the satellite physical rearrangement, I turned off IPV6 in the RBE 971 as I have no equipment actively using that version, (that I know off) and others on the Community have advised it might help with a few IoT on-boarding issues I’ve had. I haven’t tried to on-board any IoT’s since I turned off IPV6, but I wouldn’t think that change would increase my iPhone WiFi speeds, I think it was related to WiFi interference from the one satellite.

[FURRYe38]

Might be good to try swapping the offending RBS with the other RBS to see if the problem follows with the offending RBS or remains at the remote location. 

@Roc1