Re: D7000v2 with EX7000: is this combo mesh compatible?

CaptainPeacock · ‎2019-01-07

Hi, I'm thinking of using this combo for our church hall which has two large-ish halls with a few small side rooms. Ideally I'd like to set up mesh networking so that users don't have to manually switch WiFi connections as they wander between both halls. So...

a) will this combo work as I want it to (i.e. create a 'seamless' mesh network)

b) if so, how do I configure both devices to achieve a mesh network

c) would I be better off buying the EX7700 instead?

Many thanks

StephenB · ‎2019-01-08

This should work, but users still might need to toggle their wifi on/off when they switch coverage areas.

Triband equipment (both router and extender) would give you better performance (particularly the extender, as relaying the traffic through a shared radio cuts the bandwidth in half).

The best approach would be to use wired ethernet to connect the other APs. You could still use an extender (in AP mode), or just get an access point (ceiling or wall mounted). With real APs, you could optionally use a small PoE switch - so you wouldn't need to worry about power. You could also look at Orbi Pro (though it is more expensive).

If you aren't in a rush - Netgear is introducing some new products at CES (including new APs, and an Orbi Pro satellite that is ceiling mounted). I'm not seeing any prices in the press release though. https://www.netgear.com/about/press-releases/2019/NETGEAR_EXPANDS_PRODUCT_OFFERING_FOR_SMALL_BUSINES...

FWIW, my own church started with using home routers as APs and some extenders, but in the end we put in some real APs and that has worked out better.

CaptainPeacock · ‎2019-01-09

Thanks for the useful info. Hmmm... maybe I should consider the Orbi RBK50. The ISP we will be going with (Plusnet) usually supplies their own WiFi modem-router, (probably the Hub One) so could I hard wire the Orbi router into it via the yellow port, turn the WiFi off in the ISP's router, set it in bridge mode and just use it as a modem?

I've not set up a separate DSL modem & router combo before. I take it the Orbi router needs the ISP login info entered rather than the ISP's modem-router as it will be in bridge mode.

StephenB · ‎2019-01-09

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

Thanks for the useful info. Hmmm... maybe I should consider the Orbi RBK50. The ISP we will be going with (Plusnet) usually supplies their own WiFi modem-router, (probably the Hub One) so could I hard wire the Orbi router into it via the yellow port, turn the WiFi off in the ISP's router, set it in bridge mode and just use it as a modem?

You have three basic options with Orbi. In all cases you turn the ISP router's wifi off.

You can

use bridge mode, and configure the Orbi as a router
configure Orbi as an access point, and continue to use the ISP router as a router
you can do back-to-back routing - which makes port forwarding a bit more complicated, but which won't hurt overall performance.

One benefit of Orbi is that you can provide both a secured network (for staff and leadership) and an isolated guest network (for general congregation use) throughout the coverage area.

The RBK50 has the highest performance of the home Orbis (the RBK53 package coming with two satellites). The router and satellites are designed for tabletop, so you'd need a shelf to put them on. I use the RBK50 myself, and it's worked well for me.

Orbi Pro (the small business version) is worth a look too. It's satellites can be wall-mounted (with the ceiling satellite being announced at CES). It has some management features that might be helpful - for instance you can limit connection speeds to prevent one or two people from hogging all the bandwidth.

CaptainPeacock · ‎2019-01-10

Thanks Stephen - very useful info. I'll probably stick with using the Orbi Pro router & satellite in AP mode and use the ISP modem-router for the routeing. I can't see we'd need the WiFi for anything other than normal use, so port forwarding probably won't be an issue.

I assume the back-to-back routeing option would not be needed either. Is that the same thing as using a hard-wired Ethernet connection between the Orbi router & satellite for 'return' or upstream traffic, thus freeing up WiFi bandwidth for downstream use?

I'm a bit of a newbie with mesh networks as you can probably tell!

StephenB · ‎2019-01-10

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

I assume the back-to-back routeing option would not be needed either.

It's not needed. It would let you use router features in the Orbi that aren't in the main router (as would bridge mode). I use that setup myself at home - I need to use my ISP router as a router in order to get some cable TV services. But I also want to use the OpenVPN server in the Orbi, and that requires the Orbi to be in router mode. Double-routing lets me do that.

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

Is that the same thing as using a hard-wired Ethernet connection between the Orbi router & satellite for 'return' or upstream traffic, thus freeing up WiFi bandwidth for downstream use?

That's something different from double-routing.

When you connect your client device to an Orbi satellite it's wifi traffic needs to reach the main router somehow. There are two different ways to get it there. One is to connect the satellite to the Orbi base unit with ethernet, the other is to use the Orbi wireless mesh.

In Orbi, the path from the satellites to the router (no matter how it's done) is called the "backhaul". When you are dealing with mesh extenders like the EX7000 the wireless connection mode is called "extender mode" and wired ethernet mode is called "AP mode".

Orbi (and the higher end mesh extenders) can deliver good performance either way, though you will lose some performance if you use the wireless backhaul. I'd start with the wireless mesh backhaul first - no need to run ethernet cables through the building if you don't have to.

BTW, if you do run ethernet cables, make sure you run the appropriate grade. You should use plenum grade cat6 (or cat6a). The "plenum grade" relates to the insulation - which is fire retardant and low smoke. The plenum grade isn't needed for short patch cables, but it is needed if you are running over drop ceilings, walls, etc.

CaptainPeacock · ‎2019-01-11

Thanks again Stephen, more useful info.

I may go with your setup as I'm not sure the router section of the ISP's modem-router can be disabled, but I'm pretty sure its internal DHCP server can. I take it you've disabled the DHCP server in either the Orbi router or the ISP's router.

A few more questions if that's OK:

1) How many devices can concurrently connect and use the Internet via WiFi to the Orbi router & satellite mesh network? I assume it's as many as the DHCP 'scope' can handle e.g. around 252-ish for a scope of say 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.254. I doubt that many users ever will connect concurrently, but there's always the possibility.

2) Will a 5-10m Cat5e patch cable suffice from the ISP modem-router to the Orbi pro router be OK? It won't need to pass over/through walls, just from the ISP router to the Orbi Pro in the main hall.

3) Does this cable need to be a 'standard' patch cable or a 'crossover' cable; or does the Orbi Pro support auto MDI-X i.e. it will auto-sense which type of cable is connected and configure itself accordingly?

4) Set up as yours is, can all WiFi users seamlessly move to and fro between the WiFi signal from the Orbi Pro router in the main hall to the WiFi signal from the Orbi satellite in the large side room without having to turn the Wifi off & on again on their device as they move from one room to another?

5) If a user wishes to use a VPN of their own, will I need to obtain a static IP adddress from my ISP (the proposed ISP will supply one for a small one-off fee) for this to work?

6) Does the Orbi Pro system have an admin-configurable WiFi time schedule i.e. can you turn the WiFi on and off at specific times each day? It seems pointless to leave the WiFi on when there's no-one there!

Many thanks for all your help,

Nigel

StephenB · ‎2019-01-11

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

I take it you've disabled the DHCP server in either the Orbi router or the ISP's router.

No, DHCP is enabled in both.

Verizon Fios WAN -->> Verizon Quantum Router ->> 192.168.1.x IP addresses ->> Orbi router ->> 10.0.0.x IP addresses.

There are a couple of devices connected directly to the ISP router. The Orbi's 192.168.1.x address is reserved in the ISP router, and all forwarded ports to 10.0.0.x devices are forwarded to the Orbi router in the ISP router.

AP mode in the Orbi would disable the DHCP server in the Orbi (along with all routing functions).

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

1) How many devices can concurrently connect and use the Internet via WiFi to the Orbi router & satellite mesh network? I assume it's as many as the DHCP 'scope' can handle e.g. around 252-ish for a scope of say 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.254. I doubt that many users ever will connect concurrently, but there's always the possibility.

Note I don't work for Netgear, so my information here is based on datasheets, forum posts, etc.

They

advertise 40 simultaneous connections for each Orbi Pro device (router and satellites).
test to 256
there is no theoretical limit (though you might need a separate DHCP service if you go over 256).

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

2) Will a 5-10m Cat5e patch cable suffice from the ISP modem-router to the Orbi pro router be OK? It won't need to pass over/through walls, just from the ISP router to the Orbi Pro in the main hall.

Cat 5e will work fine, though if you are buying new cables I recommend getting cat6.

If you are using the Orbi in router mode and want your wired ethernet to be routed through Orbi, you'll also need a return cable (going back from the Orbi to an etherent switch).

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

3) Does this cable need to be a 'standard' patch cable or a 'crossover' cable; or does the Orbi Pro support auto MDI-X i.e. it will auto-sense which type of cable is connected and configure itself accordingly?

A standard patch cable works. FWIW, all gigabit ethernet devices auto-sense, so you only need to worry about crossovers with legacy ethernet.

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

4) Set up as yours is, can all WiFi users seamlessly move to and fro between the WiFi signal from the Orbi Pro router in the main hall to the WiFi signal from the Orbi satellite in the large side room without having to turn the Wifi off & on again on their device as they move from one room to another?

My own devices all seamlessly roam, without needing to toggle wifi. That includes Windows 10 laptops, Android phones, various iPads.

With 802.11 wifi, the handoff is initiated by the clients. Orbi provides information (using 802.11k) that helps clients switch more intelligently, but the decision is made by the clients. So some folks might find they need to toggle wifi off/on. That would be the case with any solution.

If folks are using WiFi calling in their cellphones, they might find that there is some disruption (or even a call drop) if they move to a new coverage area. Of course they wouldn't be doing that anyway during a service.

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

5) If a user wishes to use a VPN of their own, will I need to obtain a static IP adddress from my ISP (the proposed ISP will supply one for a small one-off fee) for this to work?

Your users would be using a VPN client that connects to a server on the internet. No static IP addresses are needed for that (and no port forwarding either). It should just work.

If the church wants to provide their own VPN (to allow staff and/or leadership to access the church network remotely, then you can use the built-in OpenVPN server in the Orbi. That requires the Orbi to be in router mode. You don't need a static address - instead you use a service called DDNS, which lets you assign a domain name to the churches (current) dynamic IP address. DDNS is also built into the Orbi firmware, and Netgear bundles a free DDNS service ( letting you assign a XXXX.mynetgear.com name). All this works even in the double-routing mode. Even though my Orbi's WAN address is 192.168.1.x, the DDNS client grabs the Verizon Quantum's public IP address. I do need to forward the OpenVPN ports to the Orbi in the Quantum router.

@CaptainPeacock wrote:

6) Does the Orbi Pro system have an admin-configurable WiFi time schedule i.e. can you turn the WiFi on and off at specific times each day? It seems pointless to leave the WiFi on when there's no-one there!

Well, I have the Orbi, not the Pro. But based on the Pro's manual, the answer is no. Netgear's general take on this is that security cameras, smart thermostats, etc all require 24x7 wifi - so they no longer view this as an important feature. Another aspect is that every time you turn the wifi on the system needs to recreate the backhaul mesh.

So you can block internet services on a schedule. But the wifi is always on.

BTW, the user manual for the Orbi Pro is here: http://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/GDC/SRK60/SRK60_UM_EN.pdf

CaptainPeacock · ‎2019-01-12

Thanks again Stephen: the fog is BEGINNING to clear a little!

That's interesting that you're using double-NAT and I can see how you've gotten around the double-NAT issue by using 10.0.0.x in the Orbi and forwarding the 10.0.0.x ports in the ISP's router to the Orbi. I'd forgotten that 10.0.0.x were also private IP addresses. I do know the ISP router will allow the use of the 172.16.x.x private range as well as 192.168.x.x. so I may use them instead.

If I use your setup, will I need to forward all 10.0.0.x ports in the ISP router to the Orbi router IP address? And what service do I set it for? FTP? HTTP?

I've downloaded the Orbi Pro manual and will pour over it later.

Having done some more digging, I'm wondering whether it might be simpler in the long run to buy the Netgear DM200 as well (which costs around £30 and the spec sheet says it's VDSL2 compliant) instead of using the ISP's router and plug the Orbi Pro router direct into that - especially as the Orbi Pro has full routeing capability. Whilst slightly more expensive, would that setup work and perhaps be a bit simpler to configure?

Looking at the DM200 manual, it APPEARS the DM200 has full routeing capabilities and DHCP server but just no WiFi (which isn't needed anyway). The manual says the router and DHCP server sections in the DM200 can be disabled so that it acts purely as a modem. In which case, I'll need to set up the ISP login details in the Orbi Pro router... correct?

Sorry to be a nuisance, but I really need to get this right with my limited experience before buying.