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Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

ovidiu
Aspirant

RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering?

Good Idea ? This Is after my 3 byear old 316 had to be RMA-ed.

Usage will be daily (I plan to use cron to start it when my kid comes home)

Short cartoons and cartoon shows, but majority 1080p (hence stroiooing for speed, and mirroring for some safety (short recovery time).

Am I OK with just one SSD for tiering (What happens if the SSD dies, will the data on HDD still be available? And use 6th slot for hot spare for the Hdd's Raid 10?

THats's why I wanted to do 2 concatenaded volumes.

Volume 1 = 2+2 HDD of 4TB each for my kid movies 

Volume 2 = 1+1 SSD of 256 GB each - just for tiering, not data.

Pls advise and comment. Thank You !!!

 

Model: RN31600|ReadyNAS 300 Series 6- Bay
Message 1 of 13

Accepted Solutions
StephenB
Guru

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea


@Hopchen wrote:

I take my NAS as a storage device only. It provides data to my devices and is an integral part of backing up and data safe-keeping. But that is it.

That's also been my approach for a couple of years now.  I've deployed a Windows desktop PC as an application server, and that is where I run plex and other applications.  I agree it's more scalable.

 

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Message 8 of 13

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StephenB
Guru

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea


@ovidiu wrote:

RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering?

Good Idea ? This Is after my 3 byear old 316 had to be RMA-ed.

Usage will be daily (I plan to use cron to start it when my kid comes home)

Short cartoons and cartoon shows, but majority 1080p (hence stroiooing for speed, and mirroring for some safety (short recovery time).

 


It's not a bad idea, but it is overkill for your application.  Streaming requires good large-file (sequential) transfer speeds, it doesn't require fast random access. 

 

Normal XRAID should be more than enough for 1080p streaming for home users.  A single 1080p stream requires at most 8 MB/sec (full BlueRay), and most 1080p rips are in the 1-2 MB/sec range.  XRAID/RAID-5 can deliver about 100 MB/s large file speeds on a gigabit network. 

 

Were you having streaming issues before?  Are you streaming with Plex?  If not, what are you using?

 


@ovidiu wrote:

 

Am I OK with just one SSD for tiering (What happens if the SSD dies, will the data on HDD still be available? And use 6th slot for hot spare for the Hdd's Raid 10?


Tiering isn't caching - my understanding is that the folder and file descriptors (e.g. the metadata) are only saved in the SSD RAID group.  So you should assume that the full file system will be lost when the SSD fails.  

 

If you have a backup plan in place (as you should of course), then you could risk using one SSD.  But normally you should have two.  

 

Also, since the two SSDs are mirrored, they will both reach their write limit at about the same time.   At some point you probably will want to stagger them (for instance, replacing one SSD about half way through it's useful life). 

 


@ovidiu wrote:

(I plan to use cron to start it when my kid comes home)

Just use the power schedule built into the web ui.

Message 2 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

My media player is a PS3. I like the included Blue-Ray player, it's not used for games.

I did not use Plex, because I like the file browsing in and out of folders, and not sure Plex can do that (respect my folder hierarchy).

I will stager the SSD's willi-nilly, one was used in my lapyop before, one is new, good thing you reminded me.I have problems with stutering, but from what you describe it looks more it's a PS3 decoding lack of oomph.

Which brings me to the next logical question. Apparently I shall I use another media renderer,

Sony is not powerful enough, and has an extremely limited file type of playing.

Can you recommend a versatile one that can decode easily 1080p even in mkv formats and play flac files?

the ne PS4 or Xbox One X can do that ??? - i don't care about games. Thanks.

 

 

 

Model: RN31600|ReadyNAS 300 Series 6- Bay
Message 3 of 13
StephenB
Guru

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea


@ovidiu wrote:

I have problems with stutering, but from what you describe it looks more it's a PS3 decoding lack of oomph.

 


It could be network related.  Are you streaming over wifi?

 

Stuttering can also be caused by bitstream errors in the files, or by files that aren't compliant with the BluRay H.264 profile.  So if the stuttering happens with specific files, you might see if you can play them from a USB disk connected to the PS3.

 


@ovidiu wrote:

 

Can you recommend a versatile one that can decode easily 1080p even in mkv formats and play flac files?

the ne PS4 or Xbox One X can do that ??? - i don't care about games. Thanks.

 


My own media players are old and no longer on the market, so I don't have good advice to offer there.  Most new ones don't support direct access to network shares.  Plex will stream mkv and flac (though flac might need to be transcoded for some players). 

 

There is a folder view that can be set on the server side.  You can certainly try that on a PC (using the web interface), and see if it presents in a way that works for you.

Message 4 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

I am using a 1GB cable , not wireless.

 

I did instal Plex (only app) and I am streaming 720p or1080p. due to ca

It's the RN316 processor that is underpowered and combined with PS3 limitations (every new update removes a feature - they started with removing Linux, then MKV then FLAC)

I installed the Plex on the PS3 side, but it's still stuttering.

The RN 316 (the new unit I received in warranty) has a raid 10 HDD (2x2 4TB Seagates) and a Higher Tier for caching (2x256GB Samsung). But the processor is the bottleneck.

 

Based on my previous experience (in 12 years I changed 4 netgear 6 bay units due to various catastropihic events with data loss, and the fact that the ultragious pricing for a decent processor for a 6 bay unit, I am in a picle with Netgear.

The (paid) customer support is good, but I preffer the no need for customer support and just working units.

Like my other 2 Nas-es, made by Synology. One is 9 years old and the other 7. Never a failure (they descently drop the HDD after trelling me for some time I have reached a threshold failure, OS is vastly superior and you can have one with a decent processor at an affordable price.

 

Coupled with my neigbour showing how easy he can get admin access to my Netgear R800 X6 router, I think that it's time to re-think my approach., the original one I bought was defective from the get go on the capacitive buttons but I did not knew how they behave, it look like a big blue light)

PS I can't even register my  RN316 (though new replacemwnt , it's already registered), and can not transfer my recently paid customer support. Unless I beg probably the hard to find customer support phone and re-re-explain my story , thogh I have an over 200 CAD $ phone support (paid this jan) , there is no phone listed. My options are to ask comunity or look at the useless My Gear intricate pages.

Alll I can see is the initial case nr 41006975, but the history is obfuscated .

 

Stephane, you mentioned old media player, and yes, network cable is paramount.

Do you mind mentioning which one? The Xboxe One S is apparenly not bad in my quest to find a more versatile one than Sony PS3 (though PS3 has a very clean, intuitive and responsive UI)

 

 

Model: RN31600|ReadyNAS 300 Series 6- Bay
Message 5 of 13
StephenB
Guru

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea


@ovidiu wrote:

 

Stephane, you mentioned old media player, and yes, network cable is paramount.

Do you mind mentioning which one? 


I use Netgear's EVA9000 as my main media player.  The final firmware is 7 years old - Netgear exited the media player market back in 2012.  It handles AVC/H.264 well.  There are some missing audio formats (DTS and HE-AAC for example), which it doesn't play - I just transcode those audio tracks if necessary.  

 

You might want to look into the Nvidia Shield (running either Kodi or the plex player).  Roku, Amazon Fire, Apple TV are other options (which do support plex).  Upgrading the player is usually cheaper than upgrading the media server (especially if it is a NAS).

 

Note you can actually run the plex server on the Nvidia Shield (which does have hardware support for some transcoding): https://support.plex.tv/articles/221099648-limitations-when-running-plex-media-server-on-nvidia-shie... That's one reason I put the Nvidia Shield first on the list.

 


@ovidiu wrote:

 

It's the RN316 processor that is underpowered and combined with PS3 limitations (every new update removes a feature - they started with removing Linux, then MKV then FLAC)

The CPU on the RN316 can be stressed if you are doing real-time transcoding to overcome player limitations.  But not if you are just streaming.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "removing Linux".

 

FLAC is an audio codec, so if the player doesn't suppport that, then plex would have to transcode it.  No guarantees that it would choose a lossless format.  I'm not sure why that would stutter, as FLAC isn't that difficult to decode.  Personally I'm fine with lossy formats though, so FLAC isn't something I use myself.

 

MKV is a container, not a codec.  Remuxing to a new container shouldn't stress the RN316's processor.  But if the underlying audio/video codecs aren't supported, plex would have to transcode them also. You should probably look at the details of audio and video formats you actually have - you might be able to overcome some (or perhaps most) of your issues by converting some of your files to a more commonly supported format.  

Message 6 of 13
Hopchen
Prodigy

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

This is an interesting topic in its core. What is a NAS now-a-days? I think more and more people see it as a server that will handle storage, Plex, apps, ReadyCLOUD, etc. The more tasks you add to the NAS the more it requires of the hardware inside.


The RN316 is getting older now and the hardware might struggle with some of the more demanding tasks, such as Plex transcoding. As @StephenB said, upgrading the NAS is very expensive because in order to get "proper" CPU and RAM capabilities, you will need a fairly high-end model and that is gonna cost you.

 

I take my NAS as a storage device only. It provides data to my devices and is an integral part of backing up and data safe-keeping. But that is it. The raw transfer speeds on many desktop NAS'es will easily saturate a gigabit connection and that is all I need - fast file transfers.
If I want a server that can do all the different tasks listed above (except of course ReadyCLOUD - but I would prefer a classic VPN solution) then I get a different device to do that. A well specced Intel NUC could be a good choice for a home server. The storage deposit could still be on the NAS and the server would simply pull data from it as needed. That is also a much more scalable solution I think because you won't get limited so much by the NAS aging. The RN316 would still provide excellent file transfer speeds.

 

 

Message 7 of 13
StephenB
Guru

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea


@Hopchen wrote:

I take my NAS as a storage device only. It provides data to my devices and is an integral part of backing up and data safe-keeping. But that is it.

That's also been my approach for a couple of years now.  I've deployed a Windows desktop PC as an application server, and that is where I run plex and other applications.  I agree it's more scalable.

 

Message 8 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

@Hopchen  @ Stephen 

I could not agree more with your statements. I wanted the 316 to serve just the files to an external media renderer (the Plex solution was sugested at one point in the discussion, but I am reealistic about the power of the processor, plus I hate having extra writes/reads from indexing - just read my folders, a la Kodi) So from the begining  I bought Irfant and then Netgear just to serve the files. Went through Thecus, but abysmal forums and speed) Before I had a kid I used my computers/laptops as media renderers.

I did not have a NUC , but similar a Mac mini and I was using the PS3 (that I bought solely for the Blueray and Linux tinkering) to listen to music ( I ripped my over 3000 CD's 10 years ago as flac's - seemed a great idea at the time. The PS3 as a media rendered was a bonus.

The Mac Mini was overkill, and it did not have a proper remote ( I have the PS3 remarkably usefull bluetooth TV remote)

The wrench in the spoke is the fact that I got a kid now, so I am trying to minimize access to fileservers, And make it simple for her (apparently I am underevaluating her ingenuity because she managed to show me how Amazon Prime (only stream I have because of good educational cartoons, free of Barbie, Disney pink princesses and kidnappers (Beauty and the Beast).

I never exoected transcoding to happen at NAS leevel, I was using a loopback through my octacore workstation with UMS (formerly PS3 Media server).

 

I just want a capable media renderer to serve the files.

 

Now, going back to the Raid 10 setup. I did it and it works. I just now know thaat Netgear volume reconstruction is a russian roulette, especially since they put the BTRFS files. I have a strong hunch that is one of the culprits. I specifically built aa raid 6 on EXT with  RAID 1 NVM cache (synology 1019+) just to stick to what apparently works.

I keep a lot of uninteresting resezarch files, no databases, lots of pictures (mix of work and hoby

My beef is with the losing of volumes every 3 years, while doing the X-raid upscaling or just purely swaping a dying and  ejectd from the volume drive. Or having the business machines used at at 1/100th of their capacity die not only once, when consumer ones keep going for 9 years. On EXT 4.

 

 

 

 

 

Model: RN31600|ReadyNAS 300 Series 6- Bay
Message 9 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

Hopchen,

Totally true of all what you saying and thanks for your feedback.

BUT RN316 is presented as of today as a solution for small business (which imlyes reliability) and I don't have misplaced expectations as of what an Atom procesor can do. 

And mine is 10 days old.

The Netgear page now is so confusing, it's like they don't kniw what they want to sell or what is their core business.

I owned a lot of Netgear at home and the lifetime guaranteed switches wnet to gaarbage (I have a cheap TP-link-which must be the same white label manufacturer, but just works. Did not went with the "lifetime guarantee anymore, because they were stopping workin.

Even now, my router is a Netgear R8000 X6 was 2 years exposed (neigbour showed me how he can get admin credentials) and I have to reboot it every time I do heavy transfers file servers)

So it's my empirical observation that the value of netgear is in it's former employees. Because right now, as a brand it is not convincing. I miss mdgm since Irfant times. Their Star Wars team made it succesfull.

Again. thank you for still hanging around and helping novice and frustrated Netgear customers. Respect.

Model: RN31661D|ReadyNAS 316 6-Bay
Message 10 of 13
TeknoJnky
Hero

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

I also heavily recommend the nvidia shield.

 

it is about the best plex client, and it can be a server for a small or starter server, but eventually if your library gets too big you will out grow it (IMO)

 

even if you don't want plex, it has full android store so you can use VLC or KODI or just about any other common android media player.

 

 

Message 11 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Quest for intuitive, folder based navigation, versatile,

 thanks for adve.iwas readin and consdering it until I realised that being in Montreal,Quebec hsd some dissadvantages.

 

IT'S UNAVAILABLE IN QUEBEC ( for now, until thry pass/bribe to get approval)

https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/nvidia-shield-tv-16gb-4k-hdr-streaming-media-player-english/121...

Znd use instead of thte PS3 Blueray, an OPPO.. check this out..

They went out of business... https://www.oppodigital.com

 

 

 


@TeknoJnky wrote:

I also heavily recommend the nvidia shield.

 

it is about the best plex client, and it can be a server for a small or starter server, but eventually if your library gets too big you will out grow it (IMO)

 

even if you don't want plex, it has full android store so you can use VLC or KODI or just about any other common android media player.

 

 


 

Model: RN31600|ReadyNAS 300 Series 6- Bay
Message 12 of 13
ovidiu
Aspirant

Re: RN316 4 HDD (4TB each) in RAID 10 with 2 SSD in RAID 1 for Tiering? Good Idea

I solved the problem. Frustrated, gave away for free the unit and filled back on my older 8 unit synology.
Message 13 of 13
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