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Forum Discussion
Orbi - why can't we change channels on satellites?
Wireless design best practice when installing multiple access points in an area is to have non-overlapping channels. So if you have 3 APs (RBR50, 2-RBS50) in an area, for 2.4 GHz, one AP would be channel 1, one would be channel 6 and the third would be channel 11. Same goes for 5 GHz - all 3 units would be on different channels.
When I look at the WiFi signals, all three units use the same channel in 2.4 and 5.0. This degrades WiFi performance, especially if the units are too close together.
Why can't we change the WiFi channel for each unit? It would be nice if we could also adjust radio power on each unit
82 Replies
With traditional domestic wireless extenders, each access point is a separate wifi network, so non-overlapping channels are a benefit. Orbi is a mesh topology, where each node (satellite) passes the signal from one to the next, extending the coverage of a single wifi network. Client devices don't have to switch from one network to another as they do with extender based networks.
That assumes optimum placement of APs operating on the same channel to avoid co-channel interference and excessive collisions. That is often not possible in real world installations. And that should not be the assumption by Netgear (just move the Orbi to an optimum location, not where you actually want it). Using the same channel does have the advantage of avoiding latency cost of channel switching when walking through the house, but most devices are stationary while in use.
In addition, in higher density housing developments and apartments, co-channel interference from a foreign WLAN near one Orbi could be different from the co-channel interference near a second Orbi.
So it would seem the best solution would be to allow the manual assignment of channels on the satellite.
Thats part of the wireless MESH system. You have a source AP and extenders or repeaters that inter connect to it.
Also having wireless sources right above one another or in close range with the Orbi systems, will present problems. 30 feet in between to start is a good starting point for placement. Depending upon building materials as well.
The router alone and cover up to 30 feet by itself. the MESH system is still base on extender or repeater design so the satellies are still extenders. Even in wired back haul mode.
But directly below is where I want the hard wired ports.
Your solution is to rearrange my house so the Orbi works the way it was designed to work? It is a poor design to not allow channel assignments to address performance issues with co-channel interference AND I can't lower the power settings to try to reduce that co-channel interference either.
Make an advanced tab that allows the satellite channels and power levels to be adjusted.
Something you can post here to request about this and see if NG will review and respond:
https://community.netgear.com/t5/Idea-Exchange-For-Home/idb-p/idea-exchange-for-home
Again, this maybe something thats not a feature with in the chipset of the actual wifi drivers for Orbi. Also this system is based on being fairly automatic for the average home user. Most users don't have this need to change any channels or power levels. Users mostly want to set the Orbi system up and have it work and thats it.
Good Luck.
tln741 wrote:
But directly below is where I want the hard wired ports.
Your solution is to rearrange my house so the Orbi works the way it was designed to work? It is a poor design to not allow channel assignments to address performance issues with co-channel interference AND I can't lower the power settings to try to reduce that co-channel interference either.
Make an advanced tab that allows the satellite channels and power levels to be adjusted.
MESH systems are based on wireless extender and repeating design and methods. These use same channel connections. Been like this since the beginning.
Besides if NG was to implement something to suite your needs, it wouldn't happen any time soon if at all on current product lines.
FURRYe38 wrote:
MESH systems are based on wireless extender and repeating design and methods. These use same channel connections. Been like this since the beginning.
Sorry, this does not make much sense - Orbi and Orbi Pro does much more than a Wireless Extender (repeater).
Orbi (most if not all versions) make use of a dedicated radio - thus Netgear does talk of Tri-Band - for the dedicated backhaul, nick-named FastLane3 Technology provides a dedicated WiFi Tx/Rx: 2x2 (866 Mbit link rate) up to 4x4 (1.7 Gbit link rate) in a Mesh. Different from a series of hard configured wireless bridges, the associations in a Mesh are dynamic and can change.
Unlikely they operate the backhaul radio and the 5 GHz front lane on the same channels - this is what a generic Wireless Extender would do (except if FastLane is enabled where one radio is used for a wireless bridge, and the other radio for the client access).FURRYe38 wrote:
Besides if NG was to implement something to suite your needs, it wouldn't happen any time soon if at all on current product lines.
The Orbi access side is built with LAN ports and two dedicated radios, one on 2.4 GHz, one on 5 GHz on each router and satellite. Can't see why there should not be a possibility for implementing some channel optimisation and RRM (radio resource management).
I show the backhaul on ch 157.
Yes, you can change channel/power but not individually. Ok, so what's the non-UI method?
It has been suggested on this thread that Mesh networks by definition share the same channels for satellites, that is simply not true. The Google Wifi mesh network negotiates channels amongst the satellites and each can be on its own channel to avoid interference.
I see that people have asked for manually setting the channel, I would much rather that Orbi was smart and picked optimal channels for each and every satellite. To be honest, I niavely assumed that Orbi did just that and have some regret about not discovering the limitation before my purchase.
As someone mentioned, the only advantage is more seamless low-latency switching between access points. However, in my home the latency is hardly an issue when compared say to cellular tower switching.
I certainly hope a software update might add channel optimization !The problem with auto channel assignment is radios tend to pick in between channels. In 2.4 Ghz, there are only 3 non-overlapping channels: 1, 6 and 11. If the radio picks Channels 4 and 7, there will be a lot of noise.
Wireless 101 for 2.4 Ghz is to have the two APs on the same channel spaced so the signal level from AP1 when you are standing at AP2 is under -72 dBm. Otherwise you have co-channel interference that reduces throughput.
That is not really achievable with the Orbi since the 5G backhaul would likely be too weak (5G is shorter range than 2.4G). Add in the complexity of competing wifi signals from your neighbors, and you have quite a problem. I can see the wireless networks of 12 of my neighbors.
Yes, there are only three non-overlapping channels. The question is, when 1, 6, and 11 are all already in use by neighbors, which channel makes the most sense for a router to automatically select? Pick 1, and have 100% overlap with an existing network, or pick, say, 3, which has partial overlap? With four routers all within range of each other, the optimal assignments would probably be 1, 4, 7, and 11, as those all maximize the distance between neighboring in-use channels. I used to live in an apartment where I could pick up 20-30 networks on my laptop. I don't know the breakdown of 2.4G and 5G networks, but there aren't enough channels for everyone to have a non-overlapping one, and splitting everyone between 1, 6, and 11 would result in an even worse experience than using all 11 channels. That's just the reality of modern living and a limited number of channels.
markalan wrote:
It has been suggested on this thread that Mesh networks by definition share the same channels for satellites, that is simply not true.
This idea in people head comes from very basic designs where mesh and client make use of the same radio.
markalan wrote:
I see that people have asked for manually setting the channel, I would much rather that Orbi was smart and picked optimal channels for each and every satellite. To be honest, I niavely assumed that Orbi did just that and have some regret about not discovering the limitation before my purchase.
Agree. Critical point is that many legislation require using a DFS process (to avoid collisions with weather radar systems) before using the higher bands of the 5 GHz network - what can require more than one minute wait before actively sending would be allowed.
markalan wrote:
As someone mentioned, the only advantage is more seamless low-latency switching between access points. However, in my home the latency is hardly an issue when compared say to cellular tower switching.
There is no problem - roaming does happen anyway, and using the same process, same standard, regardless of the next AP radio channel. However I doubt it's smart to have heavily overlapping wireless range from routers and satellites on the same channels for the obvious reasons.
On Orbi systems, you can pick primart non overlapping channels.
Users need to remember that the reason why you can't pick channels on the satellites is that they are acting as REPEATERS/Extenders, thus when repeating, they have to be on the same channel as the source wifi signal channel. This doesn't work if the satellites was on a different channel from the source wireless. Repeatersand Extenders work on the same channel for this configuration.
FURRYe38 wrote:
On Orbi systems, you can pick primart non overlapping channels.
Users need to remember that the reason why you can't pick channels on the satellites is that they are acting as REPEATERS/Extenders, thus when repeating, they have to be on the same channel as the source wifi signal channel. This doesn't work if the satellites was on a different channel from the source wireless. Repeatersand Extenders work on the same channel for this configuration.Orbi -and any other mesh system- IS NOT a repeater or extender and it works totally different than a repeater/extender. Yes it's possible to have the AP's on different radio channels (as some vendors implemented their mesh systems) but Netgear chose to have all APs on the same channel. Both implementations have their advantages and disadantages.
For lamens terms, there repeaters or extenders.
Thanks.
Being more techinal:
Wireless repeaters and mesh networks are both technologies that can be used to extend network coverage over a given area. Wireless repeaters work by taking an existing wireless signal and re-broadcasting it, while mesh networks see every device on a network directly connected to every other device without the use of a central router or switch. Wireless repeaters are usually best suited to extending the range of a small wireless network, while mesh networks are often used for high-performance business networking.
Operation
A wireless repeater is a device designed to receive wireless signals and then re-transmit them. The main difference between wireless repeaters and regular wireless routers is that repeaters can only re-transmit signals they have already received, rather than generating wireless signals of their own. Mesh networking, on the other hand, is a form of network design rather than a specific technology. In a mesh network, data travels from device to device in short hops until it reaches its destination, rather than being directed by a central device. Both wired and wireless networks can use a mesh topology.Reliability
The principle advantage of mesh networks is their resilience. Mesh networks do not have a single point of failure, meaning that there is no chance of an individual device failure bringing the whole network down. This contrasts with regular hub-type networks, where a failure in a central router or switch could cut large parts of the network off from each other. Repeaters, on the other hand, do not increase a network's resilience. If the router or access point broadcasting the original wireless signal goes down, all repeaters on the network will be affected.Scalability
Repeaters can help to scale a wireless network, increasing the network's range while ensuring that devices on the edge of the network still get a reasonable service. You can simply add more repeaters as the network grows, although a signal that has been repeated multiple times will not be as strong as the original signal. Mesh networks, however, do not scale well, as every new device must be connected to every other device, a process that can consume a lot of time and money.Complexity
Mesh networks are almost always more complex than their hub counterparts, requiring specialized equipment and trained administrators to keep the network running. This complexity has a bearing on the overall cost of the network, making mesh networks expensive to set up and maintain. Wireless repeaters, on the other hand, allow you to keep your network design reasonably simple even as the network's coverage areas grows, as the signal always originates from the same wireless router.
FURRYe38 wrote:
Users need to remember that the reason why you can't pick channels on the satellites is that they are acting as REPEATERS/Extenders, thus when repeating, they have to be on the same channel as the source wifi signal channel. This doesn't work if the satellites was on a different channel from the source wireless. Repeatersand Extenders work on the same channel for this configuration.
This is circualar reasoning? WHY are the satellites acting as Repeaters/Extenders? It's by design choice of Netgear, I assume.
Circular reasoning for sure. Furry, time to take you team Netgear hat off and give up.
I have set up numerous traditional, consumer and commercial systems. Yes Orbi breaks the rules of channel seperation, however, IT WORKS AMAZING. I have luxul and I have Orbi x3 in my 4000sqft home. I use a ethernet backhaul. But all units are on channel 8 ( yes, another rule breaker ) I have six nest cameras uploading to the cloud 24/7, endless family of streaming and pandora playing 24/7 in the background. My Orbis are FAST and dont crash.
- I just wanted to add my experience with orbeez I have the same model you do three units and they all use the same channel that I can see on my Wi-Fi analyzer. I have 62 devices connected a handful which are Ness cameras streaming uploading all the time to the cloud gigs of data and all products are working flawlessly! As a technician who installs ubiquity and other consumer and retail networks I can tell you the way or the operates is absolutely phenomenal. Not only is it very strong Works indoors and outdoors and none of my products disconnect I will not question the basic laws of physics that say it shouldn't work on all one channel, but it does.
